How we perceive strong and confident voices gets manipulated from the big screen and from everyday media. These platforms tinker with our minds to make us think that certain voices or tones represent one way of strength or weakness. And the media will have us all believe that self-assured, confident people sound smooth and never say “um” or “uh” or “like.” But being in the real world, that’s not true. 

Today, I’m bringing on Maya Chupkov, the executive director of Proud Stutter, a podcast about shifting the stuttering narrative and embracing verbal diversity. 

We dive deep into:

  • How Maya has incorporated her stutter as part of her podcast
  • The defining moment that led her to be an advocate for verbal diversity
  • The difference between a nervous stutter vs a natural stutter

Links worth exploring from the episode:

Engage with Maya Chupkov:

Connect with Mary!

Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.

Transcript with audio description:

[MUSIC IN]

CLIP – MAYA: I know I felt misunderstood throughout my entire school age because I had this deep fear and shame around my stuttering and it’s something that I kept hidden from a lot of people. And so the more I’d hide it, the more people just didn’t understand why my speech was the way it was. Because what you see on a TV and film didn’t exactly match my stuttering experience.

[MUSIC OUT // PAUSE A BEAT // INTRO]

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MARY: Welcome to the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

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MARY: Reveal and define your voice to speak your truth through the power of podcasting. And I’m your host, Mary Chan.

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MARY: Hello again! This is episode #47, normalizing stuttering for verbal diversity with Maya Chupkov.

[MUSIC FADES // NEW MUSIC STARTS]

MARY: How we perceive strong and confident voices actually gets really manipulated from the big screen and from everyday media. These platforms, they tinker with our minds to make us think that certain voices or tones represent one way of strength or weakness. And the media will have us all believe that self-assured, confident people sound smooth, speaks with lower tones and never says “um” or “uh” or “like.” But being in the real world, that’s not true. Even for people who probably have professional speech and voice coaches like actor Emily Blunt, singer Ed Sheeran, and even President Joe Biden. But have you realized what those three people actually all have in common with their speech? All these confident, well-known people who face many, many different, various audiences all the time, their common denominator is that they all stutter. Human conversations naturally have stutters, ums and likes. And yes, all of that can sound powerful. So why is stuttering such a bad thing in podcasting? How can podcasting create more representation for different ways of speaking?

In the podcasting industry, people want to have shows like the next NPR or CBC production here in Canada. Not only to emulate that success, but how they sound as well. And with that, a lot of heavy-handed editing can happen to remove all the filler words, the stutters, the restarts, to have that “professional sound.” But taking away all this verbal diversity means that we are homogenizing the human voice, when really the voice and variety is key to standing out, especially on a podcast, when traditionally there’s no video involved. It’s all about the voice. Who wants to talk to someone who sound robotic when we can have passion and energy in our voice? And that passion is your power by the way. So don’t take that out. And yes, to having all of that I’ve just said and including stuttering. 

Today, I’m bringing on Maya Chupkov, who is the executive director of Proud Stutter, a podcast about shifting the stuttering narrative and embracing verbal diversity. She produces, edits and hosts the show. Maya is also the Media and Democracy programme manager for California Common Cause. Maya shares her perspective on stuttering as part of her podcasting life, especially on the editing of each episode and how her advocacy work goes beyond her podcast. I love Maya’s passion for her work, so keep listening to hear how you can support and be an ally for normalizing, stuttering and bringing verbal diversity to the forefront. Enjoy the show.

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

MARY: Maya thank you so much for coming on the show. I heard about your story and your podcast through a mutual friend and I was like, I got to have you on. Because like you, I really want to normalize different speech, the way people speak and how different isn’t a bad thing at all. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

MAYA: Thanks so much for having me.

MARY: Growing up for you, you identified with stuttering and you had this whole journey with it. So can you tell me, how did you identify with stuttering growing up? Because it does have a lot of bad connotations in Western society.

MAYA: I grew up thinking that my speech was broken and something that needed to be fixed, something that is an easy target for bullying and being laughed at. And a lot of that has to do with the stereotypes we see on TV and film. These stereotypes are deeply traumatic for people who stutter and really do a lot of harm to how we view ourselves, especially as our younger selves and in school and the classroom and all that stuff.

MARY: So then with yourself, how did that affect your voice?

MAYA: I, frequently, was passed as shy. I was labelled a lot as being shy because I didn’t talk a lot and which is totally the opposite of who I am. I’m actually quite loud and can often come across as Type A, although I think deep down I’m Type B [LAUGHS] but… So yeah, it definitely I think I, I know I felt misunderstood throughout my entire school age because I had this deep fear and shame around my stuttering and it’s something that I kept hidden from a lot of people. And so the more I’d hide it, the more people just didn’t understand why my speech was the way it was. Because what you see on a TV and film didn’t exactly match my stuttering experience.

MARY: Yeah, so describe that, because a lot of people think of stuttering and you go to that other extreme, kind of like the stereotyping. What is it like for you and your stuttering?

MAYA: One of the examples I often use is the Billy Madison. I don’t know if… I think a lot of people have seen it, but I’ll describe the scene just very briefly. So there is a kid in a classroom and the students go around reading from a book out loud. And by the way, this was always like the hardest thing about stuttering just growing up is being called on to read a passage in class. And so one of the students, it was his turn to read, and he started stuttering. And the main character, Adam Sandler, who was, who is in the classroom, he’s an adult in the classroom. He started making fun of that student, basically saying that that student did not know how to read and was not smart because of his stutter. And so there’s a lot to unpack there, but that’s just an example of how stereotypes can be super harmful. And it’s definitely carried a lot of weight in my life. People have called me dumb and stupid because of my stutter, and so that’s why I felt very pressured to try as hard as I could to hide my stutter just because I didn’t want people to think less of me. 

MARY: Yeah. Wow. I’m so sorry that you had to go through that. Like, childhood is painful enough.

MAYA: Mhm. Yeah.

MARY: And then to have that layered upon you like that. So then, you were speaking before about your deep fear and shame and so how do you translate that and get out of that, almost, bubble, I would think, to finally speak up.

MAYA: I would attribute a lot of it to having a partner in life who’s just deeply patient and understanding. He’s never really put a lot of weight on my stutter, like he’s always just treated me as, you know, someone. I don’t want to say the word normal, but like he, I just always felt comfort with him. And I think the reason why we were able to reach that point in our relationship is because he had a stutter when he was younger. He outgrew it. So he actually was the one that encouraged me to do a podcast around stuttering. So the idea… me wanting to do a podcast came before the stutter topic, but he’s always been so curious about my stutter. And so that was kind of how the light bulb moment happened, where as soon as he said that, I felt so much energy inside myself, bubbling up, as soon as that idea was put in my head.

MARY: I love that because I think from a non-stutterer point of view, because podcasting is so audio based and it is fully about the voice, you know, there is now some video podcasts and stuff, but in its true essence, podcasting is all about voice. So when people think of stuttering, they’re like, Oh no. Like, you can’t… can’t be a podcaster. You can’t record your voice and do that, you know, be out in the world with that. So how did you overcome the fear of getting behind the mic, if there was any, to begin with?

MAYA: I grew up wanting to be a broadcast journalist, funny enough. [LAUGHS]

MARY: I love that.

MAYA: Yeah, [LAUGHS] and it really stemmed from watching sports with my dad. I’d always see, like, the pretty lady on the camera interviewing the players and I was like, I want to do that. And so that’s kind of where the thought came. And then I, I just always thought that wasn’t in the cards for me because of my stutter. And so I never pursued it, but it’s always been there. And so that is one of the main reasons why podcasting was so appealing to me, because it allowed me to get on the mic. There was no really barriers to entry, and there was just a lot of ways that I took advantage of to, you know, get the equipment, get a grant for just starting it. So what really pushed me over the edge to actually believing in myself that I could do this is I listened to one of the first podcasts I ever listened to was NPR’s Life Kit. Listening to a bunch of the episodes, there were two episodes that they invited experts on, and they had some form of verbal diversity or a speech difference. And that made me realize, like, if they could do it, then I could do it too.

MARY: Yeah, it’s all about representation.

MAYA: Right.

MARY: If people hear it, then it’s not weird. It can be done. Someone else is doing it. So why is that any different? And I love that you heard that from a podcast.

MAYA: Yeah. And I was so deeply moved from hearing that that I actually wrote them a long email saying how appreciative I was of them. And they responded, I think it was like a few months later and they actually asked me to be on their show. So…

MARY: Oh wow, amazing.

MAYA: That was like a dream come true. And I did not email them expecting that. I literally emailed them just because I felt so deeply moved. That was definitely a turning point in my confidence of like, Wow, I’m on to something beautiful and powerful. I’ve always been an advocate at heart, just in my day job and like just all the work I’ve done up to this point of starting a podcast. But I think appearing on NPR Life Kit was just a super big confidence booster that this is something that could really change the world.

MARY: So tell me more about how you are changing the world with your voice.

MAYA: [LAUGHS] So I, I always like to go above and beyond everything I do. And so, although I love the podcast and it’s my baby and I’m going to continue the podcast for as long as I can, I wanted to do something more beyond the podcast because yes, storytelling is so important. But I also wanted to add an element of taking action and helping others, listening and learning, and also building on that and sharing what’s possible, like how what we can do with those stories to really make a real change. And so Proud Stutter is all about storytelling, but it’s also about advocacy and encouraging people that they can use their voice in their very own communities. And so that’s part of building out Proud Stutter is building out this advocacy arm of it.

MARY: So what I’m hearing is that the podcast is the foundation for all of this other work that you’re doing. Would you have the same platform for this advocacy work if you didn’t have the podcast behind it as well?

MAYA: I don’t know. That’s a good question. I think what was really important to me, first and foremost, was to just get on the mic because it’s something that I’ve always wanted to do and it’s a part of me that I’ve never nurtured before. And so, I honestly think the podcast is really my… that is like the heart of everything. And so I don’t think I could have seen it separated or one without the other.

MARY: Yeah. They kind of have to go hand in hand.

MAYA: Yes.

MARY: Because podcasting, people see it as like the little brother or sister of radio. And then radio like what you were saying, broadcast journalism. I come from a radio background too. And so when I went to radio school, you have this indoctrination of perfect speech and it’s ingrained in the entire industry. But even though, like I was saying, podcasting is seen as like the little brother and sister, you didn’t see podcasting that way. You felt like there were… you were saying there were no barriers. And I love that you created your own platform, your own show, with your own broadcast rules, essentially. And so how has that journey evolved from when you first got behind the mic to where you are today?

MAYA: When I started, I started with one of my closest friends, Cynthia Chen. She wanted to join me on this podcasting journey because she’s kind of always wanted to dabble in podcasting as well and she really believed in Proud Stutter. And so having her start that this journey with me was so incredible because we were able to share, you know, the work and what really set us apart from other stuttering podcasts and even other stuttering organizations is that we are building allyship and the stuttering community beyond just people who stutter, but also their loved ones and people connected to people who stutter. And just really getting the outsider perspective in this storytelling journey. And so I think having her on has really cultivated this unique space in the stuttering world that has really been nonexistent up until this point. And I wanted to carry that synergy forward into season two, although Cynthia did step away because, you know, she kind of just wanted to do season one and we had an agreement that we kind of see how it goes. And even me, like, I only wanted, I only plan for season one not thinking it would ever amount to this amazing thing. And so I wanted to stick with it. So now I do everything myself and what I do for season two to keep kind of that outsider perspective and allyship angle is every episode I have a different rotating co-host who doesn’t stutter that helps me interview the person who stutters. And that has just been so powerful in helping people understand and build community from so many different walks of life. And that’s really, I think, is going to be such a powerful step in this verbal diversity movement is bringing everyone along.

MARY: Yeah, I also love your approach to this problem solving. So with my work with podcasters, people, yeah, would come to me and they’ll say, Oh, I’ve lost my co-host, the podcast is dead. I can’t, you know, I can’t do it without this person. And so what was that thought process in doing season two with the rotating co-host in mind?

MAYA: To be honest, I was terrified to lose her. [LAUGHS] She did the editing for season one and so I knew how much of a lift that was. And so I think that was the scariest part was to kind of, you know, learn a new skill and not being able to do it well at first. And so, and also just not having that support like she was just… we were always so supportive of each other and bouncing off ideas. And actually what really helped me kind of run with this idea for season two is I attended Podcast Movement Evolutions and that really helped me make a lot of connections with people with other podcasters and other people in the industry. And what I was constantly learning is like podcasting is such a collaborative space and people are always thinking of new ways to collaborate. And so I thought, what a great idea to use the rotating co-host format as a way to bring other podcasters on to help me interview, bring other advocates on, bring friends on and I just thought that was such a great way to just keep connected with other podcasters.

MARY: That’s what I love about the podcasting industry as well. Most of us are just so willing to help because this industry is very new in terms of like TV and radio and stuff. That’s an old industry. And so, yeah, going out and just asking most of the time people would just say, yes, they’re excited to share their voice. So yay on you for doing that.

MAYA: Yeah. And people love being on Proud Stutter. It’s not only, you know, getting their show out there or getting their work out there, but it’s also… like after that interview on Proud Stutterer, it’s just we’re all connected in this, like, bond after such an intimate experience. So it’s just great all around.

MARY: You touched on earlier about your former co-host being the editor, and now you’re taking on that mantle as well of editing a show. As I was saying, as a recovering professional radio audio editor [LAUGHS] and the idea of perfect speech, when I started out editing, I used to over edit a lot of guest voices and especially some of my clients. They would say, Oh, make sure that, you know, you take out a lot of the stuttering because so-and-so was really nervous and they want a sound, you know, “professional.” And so I get it when it’s part of nerves, but what I hear from you is that it is part of who you are. And so for me, when I’m editing, it’s very nuanced because I still want to have that person be representative of how they naturally sound. So for your show, where stuttering is a focus, what’s been your approach to editing stutterers versus, you know, the nervous stutter or something that is just natural that you would leave in?

MAYA: So I put a lot of pressure on myself in the beginning to, you know, try to edit as perfectly as possible. And so what I, so what I thought that was when it comes to, like, editing stuttering is I would leave the stuttering in because that’s the whole point of the show.

MARY: [LAUGHS]

MAYA: But I just would put a lot of pressure on myself to make it as listenable as possible, as well. And so I would actually over-edit my own voice in the beginning because I felt less bad about editing my own voice rather than my guest. And I would also find myself over-editing the co-host who doesn’t stutter because for the same reason. [LAUGHS] But then, as I started really thinking about it and talking to other podcast editors, I realized that I’m an independent podcast podcaster. I don’t have to live up to the expectations that like an NPR or, you know, one of those bigger shows have. And so I think what I found is my listeners really love just the authenticity of it. And yes, maybe there are some episodes that are more listenable than others because of my approach to editing,  like trying to leave in the stutter as much as possible. But I trust my own instincts enough to know that even if it’s not perfect, it’s fine because my listeners are going to listen whether or not it’s perfect. And so, yes, we might not have the biggest following ever because of the editing choices I make, but I’m, I want to stay true to the show. And so that’s how I approach. It’s really, I don’t have, like, a step-by-step approach. It’s just really following my gut and my intuition about how to edit.

MARY: Yeah, and I think that is what a lot of editors actually miss. And even in the professional world as well, because they think, Oh, I have this amazing software that will just get rid of all the ums and uhs. Where normal speech, everyday conversation has to include some of that because that’s how a human speaks, not a robot. And so I love that you are embracing this because not enough people do in the podcasting space, I think.

MAYA: Yeah, and funny enough,[LAUGHS] I have been getting emails more and more emails because I am signed up for like all of the newsletters, of course. And like actually just in the past few weeks I’ve gotten a few emails saying, oh, like we’ve updated our software to like once you get rid of one um, it does all the other ums. And I’m just like, how do I like, do I respond to this? How do I respond? And so I did actually end up writing an email, not like attacking or anything, but just really talking about my experience as someone who stutters and just not telling them what to do. But just like, here’s my, my experience. Here’s how this email like, affected me. I kind of just wanted to let you know that that was how I felt about it. So who knows? It’s just yeah, it’s a balance because I get it. I get why that software exists. But I also need to do what I need to do as an advocate to make sure that at least there’s some thoughtfulness around all of this.

MARY: Mm. Exactly. Thoughtfulness. That is the keyword right there, I think. Did you ever get a response from that email?

MAYA: I haven’t. I just sent it like two days ago. So…

MARY: [LAUGHS] Okay. 

MAYA: But yeah, I’ve definitely publicly spoken out about a few companies that I felt were being very ablest. So I’m not afraid to do that. But I’m also like, I want to be respectful of certain companies that aren’t as blatant about it, but I think just need a little email to just like, at least, just bring to light some of the issues that could come from, from that.

MARY: Yeah. Just this homogenous sound in which a lot of traditional radio is. And again, that’s where I think a lot of the thinking comes from. It’s like, oh, we have to have this broadcast standard voice and like that’s not what podcasting is about.

MAYA: [LAUGHS]

MARY: I was thinking back to the editing. So, do you hear a difference between a nervous stutter versus a natural, or is there a difference? I’m just wondering, just from my audio ears, because sometimes I hear what we were talking about, ums and uhs before, I was speaking with a linguistic professor in one of my episodes and she was saying how an “uh” is very different from an “um” and what comes after that is a very specific type of emotion. So you do need to leave some of the uhs and ums in because it reflects the person’s speech and train of thought. And so I was wondering, does that happen for stuttering as well? Do you hear a nervous stutter, which you might edit out, versus a natural one?

MAYA: Yeah, that’s interesting. I think for stuttering, filler words like “um” and “like” and all that stuff, it is part of the stuttering experience because, like, our speech can’t keep up with our brain a lot. And so we have to sometimes use filler words to just help us through what we want to say. And so that is not nervousness, but then just the fact that we stutter could increase nervousness when we are being interviewed or being… speaking publicly. And so it’s not we’re stuttering because we’re nervous, but it’s just we’re more conscious that more people might, that more people might hear us stutter. And so it just, so it’s definitely a very nuanced thing. I definitely think for me, speaking for myself, when I am in an uncomfortable situation and I do get nervous, it does tend to increase my stutter, but it’s not very black and white that exactly, you know, I stutter because I’m nervous because I could be, I could be the most confident. Like when I was speaking at Podcast Movement, for example, I wasn’t nervous at all. I was like, ready to get on that stage and talk about my show like I was, that was like the most exciting moment of my life. And I still stuttered, even though I wasn’t nervous, that’s just how I talk. And so, I think as long as people understand that, like, you’ll be able to, you know, understand stuttering and the editing process more. Because for a fluent person, yes, like stuttering, like everyone stutters, right? But it’s a different experience because for me, speech has been part of my, like thinking about my speech has been ingrained ever since I could talk. And so it’s just a different experience having… carrying that weight as someone that stutters rather than someone that is a fluent and might stumble upon their speech during certain situations, but it’s not part of them as it is for someone that stutters.

MARY: So how would you prep for your podcast? Just thinking as someone who voice coaches fluent speakers and usually again, as we were saying, the stuttering comes from nerves and all of that. And so there are a couple, like, exercise techniques and things like that. But do you then approach your podcast prep any differently before you hit that record button?

MAYA: So, I barely do any prep before because I want to appear as authentic as possible. I don’t force myself to stutter, but for an interview I just allow the possibility more. And sometimes I stutter, and sometimes I don’t. So I actually try really hard not to prep at all. Of course, like if I’m interviewing someone that’s written a book or has written, you know, I, I definitely do my homework like the night before. But as far as like, yeah, just trying to prep myself to sound ready for an interview. I try not to do that because a lot of the people I do interview are very nervous and this is the first time they’re ever in a situation like this. So I just try to make it as casual and comfortable as possible for them. And the less professional I sound, the more comfortable they are. Honestly, that’s my experience.

MARY: Well, there is no real, like, professional sound. 

MAYA: Yeah.

MARY: Or, like we were saying, like perfect, right? That’s what I love so much about podcasting. It’s that people are just real. They are themselves, they don’t have to have these perfect standards because there aren’t any. It’s just randomly created a long time ago. So why do we still have to stick to that when we’re in a totally different medium in comparison to radio and TV and traditional broadcast? So I love that. So just to wrap up then, what are you specifically excited about podcasting right now?

MAYA: I’m excited that people are starting to wake up to this fact that normal speech and perfect speech isn’t something that we should be focusing on as an industry and to be more inclusive of speech differences. I am starting to see more openness to that. And so I’m really excited because I think the podcasting industry is just ripe for a lot of inclusivity and all of that stuff. So that’s what I’m most excited about.

MARY: Awesome. Yeah, me too. [LAUGHS] All right. Maya, thank you so much for coming on the show. Any last thoughts before we wrap up?

MAYA: My last thought is everyone should mark their calendars for October 22nd, which is International Stuttering Awareness Day. I’ll be doing a huge campaign for the month of October to spread more awareness about stuttering. So please, the best thing you can do is follow Proud Stutter on social media and just share out our content so we can get more people joining the verbal diversity movement.

MARY: Awesome. I did not know about that, so I am going to look that right up. International Stuttering and Awareness Day. Okay, thank you, Maya. Proud Stutter is the podcast. Search it on your favourite podcast listening app and thank you again so much for being on the show.

MAYA: Thank you for having me, Mary.

[MUSIC IN]

MARY: Maya’s passion is infectious. If you haven’t done so yet, make sure you mark October 22nd on your calendar for International Stuttering Awareness Day. And if you’re listening to this episode right when it comes out, she’ll be sharing more on social media throughout the month of October, so please do support her work. Give Proud Stutter a listen and let me know how this episode has affected you. How has your perception of stuttering changed? For me, I was very, very, very mindful when editing this episode and realized I actually stutter quite a lot and take a lot of it out because I’m thinking ahead or re-working in my brain, my phrasing, because I want to be thoughtful with my words. And so that’s when I tend to pause a lot or stutter, which isn’t the same as what she goes through. However, that is part of the podcast editing. People take out those types of stutters, so this is all really something that is perfectly normal and encouraged for podcasting. I encourage you keep some of those stutters in when you do have them on your show.

So share your reflections with me. Drop me an email at visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com, or you can leave me a voice note with stutters and all on my website with the purple button, Send Voicemail. Catch that on my website. Thanks again for listening to the show today and I’ll catch you next time.

[MUSIC ENDS // PAUSE A BEAT // OUTRO – SHOW CLOSE]

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[MUSIC ENDS]