No matter your background or the experience level you have to start a podcast, you have a wealth of knowledge to bring to the table. Think of the many past experiences you’ve had up until this point – all of which can be beneficial for your show. That experience isn’t only what’s on your resume, but also what you’re taught by your community – classmates, teachers, and even your parents.

My guest today is Stephanie Fuccio, an American podcast editor and podcaster, currently living in Europe. Before podcasting, Stephanie taught English language skills to adults while living all over the world. 

We also explore:

  • How our upbringing shapes the way we speak
  • The importance of living abroad to hear cultural differences in languages
  • What happens to people after speaking for 20 minutes

Engage with Stephanie Fuccio:

Connect with Mary!

Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.

Transcript with audio description:

[MUSIC IN]

CLIP – STEPHANIE: After teaching second language learners for so long, I got really sick of people putting all of these characteristics on folks who spoke English as a second language. I started my podcasting in China, and so I was interviewing both expats of varying language origins and then locals who spoke, like, either Mandarin or Shanghainese. And no matter who I was talking to, they all had this issue. But people would say, Oh, it’s because of this or that. You had to… Oh, that must’ve been a harder edit because they were, you know, they weren’t native English speakers. And I’m like, No, everybody is doing this no matter what their first, second or third language is. It’s this thing that keeps happening.

[MUSIC OUT // PAUSE A BEAT // INTRO]

<< Ghosthood Featuring Sara Azriel “Let’s Go” BEGINS >>

MARY: Welcome to the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

<< WOMAN SINGS: Let’s go >>

MARY: Reveal and define your voice to speak your truth through the power of podcasting. And I’m your host, Mary Chan.

<< WOMAN SINGS: So so so so let’s go >>

MARY: Hello! Welcome back. This is episode number 51. Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio.

[MUSIC FADES // NEW MUSIC STARTS]

MARY: Alright, one of the things I love about podcasting… okay, just one, [LAUGHS] because I love many things, as you know. The one thing I love right now is the fact that we all come from different backgrounds. Unlike in radio and broadcasting, in my previous career with our schooling and similar training, podcasting, I’d say anecdotally, for a little over 90% of us, podcasting is not our first calling. So like I was saying, my first calling was radio. But I know for you it’s not the same translation. So when you finally discover podcasting and create your own show, you have a wealth of knowledge to bring to the table. Believe me, you do. It might not sound as direct like radio to podcasting like it was for me, having both things be an audio-first platform. But no matter if you don’t think the knowledge you’ve gained up until this point when you started your podcast, if that matters for podcasting or not, I bet there is something you’re doing today for podcasting that you’ve brought over from something else that you’ve done in your life that’s really, really beneficial for your show. Case in point, my guest today. 

Before podcasting, she taught English language skills to adults while living all over the world for decades. So, yeah, now you’re thinking, Well, how does that tie into podcasting? Well, actually, a lot. Especially when you realize that speaking is the common thread. So let’s hear from her. Stephanie Fuccio is an American podcast editor and podcaster, currently living in Europe. She’s been an avid podcast listener since the days when we had to drag and drop MP3 files onto our tiny little micro players. You remember that? Yeah. And she also started creating podcasts in 2017 while living in Asia. Currently, she’s both editing podcasts for clients and running Global Podcast Editors, a group of freelance and small business podcast editors from around the world. And because she’s obsessed with the podcasting medium, she also writes about podcasting. So definitely check out her articles online and especially her newsletter that is on Substack if you edit your own show. 

So listen in on how our past experiences translate into the world of podcasting, including how our upbringing shapes the way we speak, the importance of living abroad to hear cultural differences in language, and Stephanie’s awesome awareness of what happens to people after they talk for about 20 minutes. It’s really fascinating and I love how she noticed this trend. So listen in to find out if this happens to you and your guests as well. So, enjoy the show. 

[MUSIC FADES OUT]

MARY: Hello, Steph. Thank you so much for joining me today. Whenever I have the opportunity to chat with you, I always take it. So thank you for wanting to come on the show.

STEPHANIE: Mary! Hey, right back at you. I enjoy talking to you anytime, anywhere. Recorded or not. [LAUGHS]

MARY: [LAUGHS] Oh! Recorded or not. Yes, that’s right. 

STEPHANIE: Dun, dun, dun! [LAUGHS]

MARY: [LAUGHS] Okay. So, we chat all the time. And you wanted to raise your hand and speak up, which I love, because this is all about my podcast is about, you know… 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: …speaking up, podcasting. And what I found really, really interesting was one of the notes you said about verbal dyslexia. For someone who doesn’t have that, I didn’t even think verbal dyslexia was a thing. You know, like I think of the visual aspect, maybe like numbers. I hear it from kids in school, you know, the reading and writing portion, letters are being flipped around, things like that. So, I had to look it up, and…

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: …verbal dyslexia is a thing. It’s not something that you just made up, believe it or not.

STEPHANIE: That is shocking to me because I honestly was just trying to describe it in words that were like understandable because most people understand that the juxtaposition part of dyslexia and I had no idea it actually was a thing. [LAUGHS]

MARY: [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: It’s interesting.

MARY: And with podcasting too, the stereotype is that podcasters love to talk and they’re so comfortable speaking, which can be true. But there is a lot of work that goes into being comfortable with your voice. So describe again what you hear in yourself about verbal dyslexia and how you described it to me.

STEPHANIE: I don’t remember how I described it to you, but I can guarantee you, because we’re doing a big geographical move tomorrow. I guarantee you throughout this conversation you will hear it. Because what happens for me is that there’s like a million things going on in my head and I kind of see in my brain, I kind of see the words that I’m about to say. And there’s some that I hold back because those aren’t the ones that I want to be public. And then there’s some they’re supposed to come out of my mouth. And especially when I’m stressed out, they get all mixed around and the ones that are supposed to stay in, come out. And they will come out in a different order than what I want them to, because I do understand word order in English. I taught English to adults for like 15 years. [LAUGHS] The language. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: Like, so I understand the language really freaking well, but I just… it just doesn’t… even if I see it sometimes in the right order in my head, it still comes out backwards. So I’ll say the words just completely switched around, like two words that need to go together will just be backwards.

MARY: I was just thinking to another friend of mine describes it as like a verbal diarrhea. It’s just…

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: …blah, blah, blah. It comes out. 

STEPHANIE: Yeah. 

MARY: What are you feeling in that moment?

STEPHANIE: Well, it’s honestly been so long that I just kind of laugh and repeat it again. Like, now, I do that. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: But as a kid, that is a completely different thing. I mean, neurodiversity was not a thing. Like if you were different in any way, you were strange and you went with the weird kids and that was it. You were just kind of ostracised. There were creative, quirky people in high school, maybe, if you were cute enough or talented enough. But as a child? Mm-mm. No, like any “quirk” was just something wrong with you. So it was, it was really off-putting and really embarrassing as a kid.

MARY: And so what was that transition like for you to accept and understand who you are and your voice?

STEPHANIE: Yeah, it was a long one because I also had the complexity of having two immigrant parents. Like my teachers assumed that my language skills were funky because of their input. And so I kind of took that on a bit. So I kind of thought, okay, great. So I’m being raised by wolves, so they’re not teaching me right. And then I’ve… like, something else might be going on and then I might actually be just dumber because that was kind of the thought at the time in the ‘70s, like, I’m just dumber than the rest of the kids. Like I took, I pretty much like took on a lot of the stuff that I think my teachers and like those around me kind of, you know, put on me. But then honestly, as I grew older, even in high school, especially the beginning of college, I started to really… like meet people who didn’t care, who were like listening to what I said and not necessarily how I said it. And I realized that part of the weird look on people’s faces when I spoke was that they didn’t understand the content, not just the mistakes I was making. And I realized that some of what I was saying was over their head, which was very ironic because I assumed they always looked at me weird because I was dumber.

MARY: Mmm.

STEPHANIE: And I was just thinking of things very differently. When that hit me, that’s right about university time, and that’s when there was a quick change, but it still grew a lot over the few years from there. But that was the biggest turnaround for me, was realizing that it wasn’t always a negative misunderstanding.

MARY: Yeah, what I’m hearing from this is that you just internalized a lot of what was said to you and you believed it because, yeah, we’re growing up like what people say, especially in your close community, say like you know, your family and your teachers, if they say certain things, it just gets ingrained and it’s all like subconscious now. So whenever you say anything, you have that in the back of your mind. 

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm. 

MARY: So this touches a bit on what you were telling me previously about language shame. And I kind of equate this to the grammar police. You know, how something… 

STEPHANIE: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Mm hmm.

MARY: …should or should not sound or our words that are supposed to go together. So what was the defining moment for you that brought this language shame on in the first place?

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS] That brought it on? Like the first time I realized I had language shame?

MARY: Yeah.

STEPHANIE: Oh. Gosh, I can’t remember a time not having it.

MARY: Oh, wow.

STEPHANIE: Yeah. I don’t know. Again two immigrant parents, they moved us to a rural area with very little diversity, very early on. So I…no. I honestly can’t remember not having it. Well, I don’t, I don’t feel like I have it necessarily now [LAUGHS], but I mean, in the early part of my life, I can’t remember a time not having it.

MARY: So describe to me what language shame means to you.

STEPHANIE: Oh, man. It’s a giant weight. It’s a giant, giant, an energetic weight that just influenced everything that came out of my mouth. Like it was just a hyper-awareness that because of my last name, because of my upbringing and because of, because I looked different than people around me, that I would be judged for perfection, for language perfection, when those around me that didn’t look different, wouldn’t be. Like it was just a hyper-awareness that mistakes had a high, high cost.

MARY: And what was that high cost?

STEPHANIE: Being found out, being treated worse, being mocked, being looked over for things I was trying to do or like opportunities I was trying to get. Yeah, it was pretty much just like doing the things I wanted to. If there was a gatekeeper, it was getting the gate closed.

MARY: Mmm. Yeah, yeah. I totally resonate with that too, being, you know, Chinese parents and in growing up in North America and Canada. So I was wondering, too, did your parents speak English?

STEPHANIE: Oh, yeah. They were both fluent. I mean, my dad came to the U.S. when… they’re both Italian immigrants when he was 12, my mom when she was like 21 or something, and they were both incredibly fluent. They functioned, other than talking to each other, they function their entire day in English.

MARY: Yeah. So you have that expectation of, well, you should know this language. You should be able to verbally say things, right? Versus, I guess, for me what I’m thinking about is like my parents spoke no English and they had to pick it up as they lived their day to day. And so their language was very much your stereotypical with a huge accent, broken English, no grammar whatsoever. And so people saw me as someone who, Oh, good for you for getting English, good for you for learning, you know? Like…

STEPHANIE: Ugh!

MARY: …getting the grasp of it. So I feel like I had the opposite end of the scale…

STEPHANIE: Oh gosh. 

MARY: …of what you had.

STEPHANIE: That’s horrible. I mean, you grew up in Canada. Like, were you not supposed to pick it up since it was all around you? Like what?

MARY: I don’t know. 

STEPHANIE: Why do people say that?

MARY: I don’t know.

STEPHANIE: That’s just so weird to me.

MARY: And it’s same thing like as an adult. At some point this past year, someone said to me, Oh, but you don’t have an accent. And I’m like, Seriously? 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: Seriously.

STEPHANIE: You’re from Canada!

MARY: Did you just say that? 

STEPHANIE: Wha-, what? 

MARY: Yeah. 

STEPHANIE: Oh, my God.

MARY: An adult had said this to me because I was talking about my history, my past, and…

STEPHANIE: Yeah. 

MARY: …parents and all that stuff. And I was like, Oh, I’m like, well, yeah, I don’t have an accent because I was born in Vancouver. My community, yes, although my parents spoke Chinese, my community was in English. I went to regular English school, public school, like everyone else. And he was like,

STEPHANIE: Yup. 

MARY: “Good for you,” was his response [LAUGHS].

STEPHANIE: Oh, my gosh. You know, it’s just so stinkin’ odd when people say stuff like that. I’ve seen people, okay. During my lifetime, apparently Italians, which is, you know, my… both my parents came from Italy, but Italians gained their whiteness, which is such a strange phrase. And it’s one that I learnt in grad school and I literally turned around and almost broke my neck when somebody said it. I was like, Is that a thing? 

MARY: I didn’t know that’s a thing. 

STEPHANIE: That’s a thing! 

MARY: No, that’s a phrase?

STEPHANIE: It’s a thing. 

MARY: That’s a thing?  

STEPHANIE: Gained whiteness. Yes, they were… when my parents came over, it was during a wave of immigration and they were treated like the hated immigrant of the moment and that’s, that was a thing. And then during, literally during my lifetime, in the late ‘80s, early ‘90s, Italians gained acceptance and therefore they gained whiteness, and now they’re considered white. And I’m like, really? Even though everybody that’s involved in here are varying shades of fill-in-the-blank, fine. [SIGHS] So in my lifetime, [LAUGHS] I went from being just constantly like the weird one because of how, because I look Italian enough to looking slightly, not exotic Italian, but okay, white enough Italian so that people will talk to me a certain way until they see my last name or until they hear mistakes or you know, then the verbal stuff comes out and then they revert to treating me like the bad Italian, like the bad immigrants’ kid.

MARY: Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: It’s just so weird. 

MARY: Yes. Yeah.

STEPHANIE: Yeah.

MARY: I remember feeling that way as I transitioned into adulthood. You know, it’s finding your first job and meeting people and they’re like, Oh, your last name’s Chan. Well, you must be an immigrant. And then they treat you a certain way.

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

MARY: And so there’s a certain language and voice that comes with that, like they might speak a little slower or yeah, or they’re just not quite sure if they want to ask you a certain question. And then you’re like, No, I, I grew up Downtown, Eastside, Strathcona Elementary, 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: Britannia, like Vancouver. I’m cool. [LAUGHS] 

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm. Yeah. 

MARY: I speak your language and then they flip and I find that flip in their voice. Like they go from a, Oh, I should just speak to you a certain way because I perceive you as an immigrant to, Oh, you’re just one of us. And so it’s, it’s hard to get that acceptance in language.

STEPHANIE: It is. It is. And the weird thing is, it’s not like they grade their language so it’s easier for immigrants who might be struggling with the language to understand. It’s more of a like talking down to someone. 

MARY: Yes. 

STEPHANIE: And I’m like, that’s not helpful to anybody.

MARY: No. 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: And you have, in your career, have taught language… 

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm.

MARY: …all over the world. Yeah. Because you don’t want to talk down.

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm.

MARY: They are still a human being. They understand, but they might be… well, just coming from my parents point of view, like, although they didn’t fully, they weren’t fluent in English and still aren’t, they have enough grasp of the language to understand. But sometimes it just takes them a lot longer to translate that in their head and then be able to sound the words out. Is then there a difference when you speak to someone who does not have a grasp of the English language for yourself as someone who teaches English as well? 

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. Well, gosh. There’s a huge difference between talking down to someone and it’s called, like, grading your language. Like basically there’s different layers of language and some are simpler than others, right? More complex terms used in certain situations, or if you’re feeling super fancy that day or what have you, and others are more informal and simpler and that kind of thing. When I was teaching, like, lower level students and lower level I mean, like, lower language level, not intelligence level, 

MARY: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes

STEPHANIE: which often gets confused. Yes. When I’m teaching lower-level students, I use that lower vocabulary and build them up to higher vocabulary. But I don’t talk to them… I don’t talk down to them because that’s not a language issue. That’s a class issue. And that’s not anywhere in my classroom because that’s just ridiculous. It’s not anywhere in my world, actually, 

MARY: Yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: because that’s just I don’t live in that space where I feel the need to push someone else down to feel better about myself. So yeah, there’s a very real difference between picking vocabulary that is very common that people would under… and simple that people would understand if they were newer to the language versus talking rudely down to them like they were your servant or something.

MARY: Oh yeah. So I’m just wondering, for myself, like I hope that I never have that intention of talking down to someone, but it’s the…

STEPHANIE: I doubt you have. I seriously doubt you have.

MARY: It’s just the… that fear that people have is like, Oh I hope you don’t get misconstrued what I’m trying to say, I guess. And I think people have that a lot, whether you’re a podcaster or not or that English is your second language or not, that we have that fear of saying the wrong thing.

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. When you’re talking to someone, where it’s a language they’re still not super quick in, a lot of times they just need that extra moment. A lot of times they just need that, Oh yeah or yeah, like you know that, that little bit of verbal… 

MARY: Yes.

STEPHANIE: …encouragement. 

MARY: Yeah. 

STEPHANIE: And a lot of times just a smile as you’re waiting is, is good because it’s like, don’t worry, it’s fine, go ahead. Kind of, you know, or rephrasing it into a simpler way is okay. But a lot of times it’s just processing speed, like you mentioned earlier, just being patient enough to let them speak.

MARY: Yeah. And I use that as well as a technique for interviews. Again, whether it’s English as a second language or not, human beings need that pause to process. You could be processing what the person said, you could be processing language translation, you could be processing anything. But in a podcast interview, I think it’s really key to have those pauses and those moments and not edit them all out because I find a lot of podcast editing,

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah.

MARY: people trim way too much. But that silence is substance.

STEPHANIE: It’s so powerful sometimes. 

MARY: Yeah. 

STEPHANIE: Yeah, it has meaning. And it’s really interesting because when we taught in Japan, like sometimes [LAUGHS], sometimes when I was teaching language and I would like ask a question to the class, if nobody answered after a certain amount of time, I would either rephrase it or I would answer it and try to break down like why they didn’t understand it and move on. But there’s a very real difference between like what we would be used to as North Americans on a comfortable pause and what a comfortable pause in Japan was. I think ours is like maybe 5 seconds or something. And Japan, it was more like 30 seconds and longer. 

MARY: Oh wow! 

STEPHANIE: And so for me, I had to kind of pause and then remind myself, pause longer. They’re not uncomfortable yet. Pause longer. And I would have to kind of like have that like a jingle or something in my head to kind of wait the time out. [LAUGHS]

MARY: [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: And inevitably somebody would get uncomfortable and then offer, you know, volunteer an answer. But I was just like, Oh my gosh, this is like a million years and 30 seconds. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yes! [LAUGHS] That is fascinating! I never even thought about that. The cultural differences in length of pauses. That’s fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that. [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah, my pleasure. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Okay. So I want to switch a little bit because earlier I was having that, trying to figure out, find my words piece and we had talked earlier about, earlier meaning, at a different point in time. We had talked about how because you’re so naturally curious, you did a bit of research about how speakers, whether you’re a professional, trained speaker or not, naturally stumble after 20 minutes. And so when I started stumbling, I actually looked at the, 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: how long we’ve been recording and I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s 18 minutes.

STEPHANIE: No, okay. I have to be fair. I have to be truthful. It’s not research. It was just something, after doing like a ton of interviews in a row, I noticed that regardless of first language or anything like that, regardless of how polished the speaker was or how often they’ve done this kind of thing, almost everybody starts to stumble at 20 minutes.

MARY: But did you dig further into that? Did you find…

STEPHANIE: Mmm mm. 

Mary: Oh, no. Oh, this is all you. 

STEPHANIE: No. 

MARY: I love this. I love this.

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: Because it was true. I was like, oh, my gosh, I’m stumbling now. What are my words? And because we are podcasting, we can see that length of time it’s been recording like, 18 minutes. Amazing. Just fascinating that you found this piece.

STEPHANIE: Because here’s the thing. After teaching second language learners for so long, I got really sick of people putting all of these characteristics on folks who spoke English as a second language. And I was interviewing people. I was… I started my podcasting in China, and so I was interviewing both expats of varying language origins and then locals who spoke like either Mandarin or, or Shanghainese. And no matter who I was talking to, they all had this issue. But people would say, Oh, it’s because of this or that you had to, or that must have been a harder edit because they were, you know, they weren’t native English speakers. And I’m like, No, everybody is doing this. No matter what their first, second or third language is [LAUGHS]

MARY: [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: It’s like, it’s just a thing. It’s this thing that keeps happening.

MARY: That’s so interesting. I was thinking back to preparing for this episode and this particular piece that we had talked about. And I was like, well, yeah, I’ve been trained so what, what was that switch in the approximately 20-minute mark? And I think for myself, it comes down to I am just comfortable in speaking with the person that I am, that I can go a bit off script and start formulating more questions and follow-ups from the conversation itself. So that takes, like what we were saying before, brain processing time. And so I tend to then stumble because I’m like, well, that’s not the word I was thinking of. This might be the phrase I’m going with, and maybe we should just come up with a better phrase than stumble, because we’re not stumbling because we’re dumb, right?  We’re stumbling because we’re thinking. So, you know, is there a phrase for that? Is there a better phrase, a word for this?

STEPHANIE: Here’s the thing. It’s sort of like cross-talk. Way too many editors take out all crosstalk, but actually some of it shows emotional engagement. But with this, the stumbling that we’re doing, verbally stumbling, I think that’s more of like building momentum with someone. I think you’re starting to bounce into their ideas and you’re starting to think so fast and get energized by the conversation that your mouth can’t keep up with your brain kind of thing. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [LAUGHS] 

STEPHANIE: Like, I think it’s a good thing because let me tell you, there’s no boring interview I did where this happened. [LAUGHS] It was mostly in those like pick up momentum, kind of conversations..

MARY: Oh, you’re right, because I get excited about something and then my brain’s going brrrrr, and then my mouth can not keep…

STEPHANIE: Yeah.

MARY: …up at all. 

STEPHANIE: Yeah. I don’t know. I think it’s a good thing. I think us “stumbling” is a sign of, oh should we make up a word? Verbal emotionality. 

[MARY & STEPHANIE LAUGH] 

STEPHANIE: See a phrase. Make up a phrase. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yep, I love this. Verbal emotionality. 

STEPHANIE: Emotionality. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yeah, it’s a good thing. 

STEPHANIE: Oh.

MARY: So keep that up. [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Earlier you touched on you started podcasting in China. I actually did not know that.

STEPHANIE: Mmm hmm.

MARY: So now, you know, knowing all of this about yourself, 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: all the verbal dyslexia, the language shame, and all of that, why then go into podcasting?

STEPHANIE: Well, by then it didn’t matter because I had already had, what, ten, twent-, almost 15 years beyond the point of it’s them, it’s not me. So it was, I had already gotten out of it. I mean, I already taught in a gazillion classrooms and presented at a number of different kinds of conferences. And I always loved like radio and recording. And when I was a kid, despite having language shame, I loved taking like, you know, old school cassette recorders and recording. 

MARY: Oh, yes.

STEPHANIE: You’re making weird sounds, 

MARY: I did that. 

STEPHANIE: and making my own mixtape. Yeah.

MARY: [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: Splicing with tape and stuff. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, I love doing that. So it didn’t even dawn on me not to. And funny enough, I actually started the YouTube channel and a podcast at the same time. So I knew I had all of these “quirks” and I just… at that point, I didn’t care. There weren’t any stakes anymore. There weren’t any gates that I was like running towards. It could be closed. It was just like, I need to express myself and these avenues are open, so let’s go.

MARY: I love it. You owned it.

STEPHANIE: Yeah. 

MARY: So how many shows have you created now?

STEPHANIE: I have no idea. 

MARY: You’ve lost count, it’s that many. [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: I have no idea. Because one, like the one I started, turned a completely different direction. And then I split it up into three and then into eight by category. And then I recombine them. And then I started a completely different one that’s more like business oriented. So I really have no idea.

[MARY & STEPHANIE LAUGH]

MARY: But okay, so then maybe the question is when you were going through that transition of okay, splitting it up and then grouping them back together, what was that need for you to evolve your podcast that way?

STEPHANIE: Probably marketing experimentation. I was trying to find the right audiences and when I had many categories in one podcast, I kept being told that, Oh, you’re not growing because people can’t find you or your SEO is too scattered and you have to niche down and all that. And so I tried to niche down a lot and all it did was create a lot of time of rearranging stuff, 

[MARY & STEPHANIE LAUGH]

STEPHANIE: so I ended up recombining it. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yeah, I love that too, because podcasting really is a testing ground. 

STEPHANIE: Mmm hmm.

MARY: You know, you can try one thing and it’s an experiment and you know what? If it doesn’t work for you, let’s try it a different way.

STEPHANIE: Try it again.

MARY: Yeah.

STEPHANIE: Exactly. And I’ve used a lot of the skills that I gained by trying to niche those down. And the other project that I’ve been working on now. So I definitely have gained stuff from it, just not necessarily for that particular podcast.

[MARY & STEPHANIE LAUGH]

MARY: And so how do you see yourself and your podcasts, multiple podcasts,

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS]

MARY: evolve in the next few years? 

STEPHANIE: Oh, I’m going through a giant simplification right now where all of the very careful extra steps that I’ve been adding on the past few years, I’m taking them away and simplifying so I can actually keep up with things because I produce more content than I can handle. So I need to actually go back and streamline and take away a number of layers of things that probably make it more discoverable. But I can’t keep up with it. And I’d rather make content that’s not discoverable, then wait to make content because, for me, it’s like an urge, it’s a need. And if I have to hold that in, that’s very uncomfortable. So I’m going through massive simplifications. So I think there’ll be more, but not as easily found. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yeah, and there’s nothing wrong with that. 

STEPHANIE: Uh uh.

MARY: We’re not here to have a gazillion listeners, and I don’t think you can have a, actually a, an intimate successful show that way anyway. 

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm. Exactly.

MARY: I think it’s in, in the smaller numbers when you do niche down which I mean you still have a very, very tight leash and so you are still going to find your audience with the format and the themes of your show that currently exist, so.

STEPHANIE: Oh yeah. And more video. I’m definitely going, I’m merging them. Whereas before they were kind of siloed out like my YouTube and my podcast had very different flavours, different content, and now my newer project is there. It’s kind of YouTube first and then the podcast second. Is that blasphemous? That feels blasphemous.

[MARY & STEPHANIE LAUGH]

MARY: That’s terrible! 

STEPHANIE: Oh my gosh! 

MARY: That should be podcast first! No, no, no. It’s whatever works for you. 

STEPHANIE: I know.

MARY: In the streamline of everything that you’ve been doing. So it’s just another piece of that experimentation.

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm. Exactly.

MARY: Yeah. So with that video piece, is that what you were most excited about podcasting right now, or what are you most excited about podcasting right now?

STEPHANIE: That’s a really good question. I’m a little burnt out on podcasting, actually. Can I be honest? [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yeah, of course you can be honest. I’m not looking for, like, a certain answer or anything.

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS] I’m looking forward to my business stabilizing and that… getting other hobbies again, because I’ve gone from podcasting being a hobby and then turning into a career and happily so. I’m glad that that happened. But now it’s so much of my life that I’m off balance, so I’m looking forward to it. It kind of going back into place and being fun so that I can go back to having hobbies that have nothing to do with this. Like I’m moving tomorrow and somebody said, Oh, I know about somebody in Romania, but they’re not into podcasting. Do you want their contact? And I’m like,

MARY: You’re like, yes! [LAUGHS]

STEPHANIE: I especially want their contact because then we won’t be talking about this all the time.

MARY: Yes, for sure. 

STEPHANIE: [LAUGHS] 

MARY: I feel you based on my hobby of knitting. 

STEPHANIE: Oh, yes. 

MARY: I have been knitting for decades and at one point early on in, I would like to call, my knitting career,

STEPHANIE: [GIGGLES]

MARY:  somebody asked me because she worked at a baby store and she wanted a whole bunch of hand-knit hats for preemies and infants. And I thought, Oh, that’s such a great idea and locally made and all this stuff. So I started churning out hats and I’m like, This is not fun anymore. 

STEPHANIE: Mmmm.

MARY: It’s just become this thing that I have to do. And so I can see that for you and podcasting and then in the podcast side, yeah people always ask me, Oh, so what podcast do you listen to? And I’m like, Well, actually, just the stuff I work on and then business-related podcasts.

STEPHANIE: Mm hmm. 

MARY: But I haven’t been able to enjoy the fun side of podcasting in a little while. So,

STEPHANIE: [SIGHS]

MARY: that’s a good reflection piece as well for me, yeah.

STEPHANIE: I’m getting there, I’ve been listening to a lot more business podcasts, but I’ve also finally gotten into audio fiction. So the thing, okay, because that was the selfish answer of what I’m looking forward to in my podcasting, but as a whole I’m looking forward to… because the tools keep coming and they keep getting easier and cheaper for podcasters. So I’m looking forward to more voices that are not professional. [LAUGHS]

MARY: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STEPHANIE: I’m looking forward to “smaller stories,” which is not a good phrase. I don’t think anybody uses that. But I think like the feel is there when people talk about non-network shows, it’s those indie podcasters. I love those indie podcasters! So I’m excited about more of them getting out there and talking about things that I have never thought about or that I know very little about.

[MUSIC IN]

MARY: Oh, I love chatting with Steph and now it’s actually official on the podcast. Yay! So okay, what was your big moment from that conversation? I personally had a lot as you heard, what with the gained whiteness, the language issues versus class issues and all the cultural language differences that happens. A lot of the stuff blew my mind and it really triggered something in my heart and it riles me up because all those things affect your literal and mental voice. The voice that’s inside your head and the way it actually comes out. So all of this comes down to, for your podcast, you could be speaking with someone who comes with their own voice story. There might be a cultural difference, or they’re experimenting with new words or phrases or even loving how you as the host are holding space for them to be more vulnerable with their verbal emotionality. And speaking of verbal emotionality, what do you think of that phrase? Did you catch on with that one during her conversation? If you loved it as much as I did, you can help us make it go viral. Woo! Wouldn’t that be cool? [LAUGHS] Anyway, share your feedback with me by leaving some voicemail on my website. There’s that Purple Button. Click on it. Let me know what you think about the episode. Or of course, you can also drop me a note over email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com. So until next time, speak with spirit and I’ll chat with you soon.

[MUSIC ENDS // PAUSE A BEAT // OUTRO – SHOW CLOSE]

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love it if you shared it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to visiblevoicepodcast.com.

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[MUSIC ENDS]