Canadian Identity in the Indie Podcasting Ecosystem with Kattie Laur – Episode 99

<< MUSIC IN – GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS >>

MARY: The stories that we choose to tell on our podcast are unique to our experiences, especially of where we come from, you know, like, where you grew up, where you are today, and people move around and travel the world all the time. And I kind of feel like that is what being Canadian really is all about. That Canadian identity is about this mosaic population celebrating different cultures that make up Canada. You know, we are a country of immigrants. You know, my parents immigrated here many, many decades ago. And although I am born here, my heritage runs deep with the way they brought me up too, right, from where they came from. So these stories that we tell are so unique. 

Being Canadian can also really affect your identity and who you are. And so I always wondered, how does this play into podcasting? You know, as a independent and also professional podcaster, I’ve always had this notion of being in North America, that podcasting is very U.S. centric, though there is a whole Canadian podcasting landscape. And I think just like anytime we travel across the world, people are always welcoming and being like, oh, you’re from Canada too, whereabouts, and people connect with that. So, how do we connect with that in podcasting? 

So today I’m so happy to bring on a fellow independent and professional podcaster from Canada, Kattie Laur is a podcast producer and growth specialist based in Brantford, Ontario. Her experience in both professional and independent podcasting has led her down a path of advocacy for Canadian podcasting and also making that industry sustainable, equitable, and world renowned. That’s why she created Pod the North, popular bi weekly newsletter for the Canadian podcasting ecosystem, which includes deep dives on industry trends and, you know, things that you, as a regular podcast creator, might not think about from a Canadian perspective. There’s also community news and updates and Canadian and Indigenous podcast features, and it really is a great read. So I look forward to it every time I see it in my inbox. And if I happen to be scrolling through LinkedIn, she posts about it too. And I’m always like, oh, I gotta read that. So if you are interested in more about the podcasting ecosystem, especially from that Canadian perspective, Pod the North is what you need to read. 

However, not only is Kattie really knowledgeable about podcasting in general, you really gotta listen in for when we talk about how she started her flagship podcast, Canardian, for her Pod the North newsletter. It is such a brilliant idea on how she came up with the name, you know, the artwork, and just how the podcast format goes. All of that is really laid out in a neat way and you should listen in because you might spark some ideas of your own on how to bring something different, yet still fun and entertaining, to the podcasting scene.

So this is episode number 99 with Kattie Laur on the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

<< WOMAN SINGS: So so so so let’s go >> 

MARY: Kattie, thank you so much for joining me. As a fellow Canadian, I like, a little fangirl with you because for, like, a Canadian. And B, I’ve been following your, like, podcasting career on and off, just, you know, through social media and, like, newsletters and stuff. And now it’s like, wait a minute, it’s almost Canada Day. I really need to talk to you.

KATTIE: Well, thank you so much for having me, Mary. I’m very excited to be here and equally excited to talk about Canadian stuff, yeah, Canadians, let’s go. [LAUGHTER]

MARY: Yes, exactly. Because I don’t know about you, but, like, for me, growing up in Vancouver, which is so close to Seattle,… 

KATTIE: Mhmm.

MARY: …right on the border, you know, I always figured everything is U.S.-centric. And so growing up, like, I was also go, Canada. I had this T shirt that said Canada kicks ass. And I remember my high school teachers was always like, you can’t wear that to school. I’m like, why not, man? [LAUGHTER[

KATTIE: Swear words.

MARY: Swear words are bad. So. But to bring it back to podcasting, I also feel like because we’re in North America and podcasting is so U.S. Centric, that we don’t see our Canadian pride, you know? 

KATTIE: Mhmm.

MARY: So I want to start with the lay of the land to even find out if there is a Canadian podcasting landscape, which I know there is. But how do you see Canadian podcasting as different from that U.S. side of things?

KATTIE: Ooh. Well, actually, I was talking to somebody from CBC about this recently, and I really liked the way that they put it, which is not to dunk on Americans too much here,… 

MARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KATTIE: …but growing up in America, there is a culture I didn’t do. So this is just my perception, but people who’ve grown up in America, there’s sort of an understanding that you sort of learn American history, and everything is sort of like, America, America, America. And we know as Canadians, like, when we talk to Americans, like, you know, that they don’t tend to know, like, how close Canada is… 

MARY: Right. 

KATTIE: …They don’t know how big Canada is. And that goes for the same as, like, every other country around the world. And Canadians seem to have a much better understanding of sort of the rest of the world. And we’re sort of always focused on our role in the global ecosystem and how we have a lot of us in Canada have cultures outside of Canada. Um, we are a nation of settlers and immigrants,… 

MARY: Yes. Yeah. 

KATTIE: …so a lot of us have roots elsewhere. So I think that’s a big part of the Canadian identity where we, we like where we live and we want to make this, like, the best, most easy place to live possible and polite and nice and friendly. But we also have an understanding that, like, each of us is different because we all come from different places and have different context of where we’ve grown up. So that means the stories that we choose to tell are all sort of different and unique and rooted in sort of a global perspective, I would say.

MARY: Wow. Yeah, that like, every time you were saying something, I was like, nodding like, yeah, that’s true. And yeah, like, my parents are from China and Hong Kong. They immigrated, you know, in the late 60s, early 70s, when immigration was open to the “less desirables”, because that was the wording that they chose. And I’ve just gotten more into my dad’s history because he passed away a few years ago and we found all his, like, documentation of…

KATTIE: Oh, wow.

MARY: …being notified that he was supposed to be deported, but somehow he stayed…

KATTIE: Wow. Yeah.

MARY: …and it’s just this idea of, I remember in elementary school too, that, yeah, we are a mosaic. We are here to celebrate all the different cultures that make up Canada because we are all so unique and come with this cultural difference,…

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: …and that’s what makes Canada unique, so.

KATTIE: Yeah, and I love that you said mosaic too, because we’ve often heard the term “melting pot”. And I think that is another difference between America and Canada, where America tends to be a melting pot of everybody sort of assimilating into being America, American, and sort of like the American dream, where Canadians in Canada seems more like a mosaic, where we’ve got distinct cultures that we can kind of, we have an understanding, makes the whole picture of Canada beautiful kind of thing.

MARY: Yeah. Yeah. So then why did you feel there was that need to create Pod the North and this identity of, you know, proud Canadianism in podcasting?

KATTIE: Well, it was actually out of frustration. So I have been a lover of public radio for a long time, since I was a kid. I have like, very vivid memories of sitting in the backseat of my parents’ car listening to CBC podcasts and the Vinyl Cafe, and I kind of grew up thinking, like, what, like, I was just so immersed in that listening experience. Especially when you’re sitting in the back of your parents’ car and you have nothing else to do. So I have, like, that was just deeply embedded in my brain. So I always thought I was going to get into broadcasting or radio of some kind. 

So eventually I did pursue broadcasting and I did want to do work on radio and I wanted be working at CBC, being a CBC radio host, all of those things. My big dreams. Went to school for radio and television production, got the internship of my dreams at CBC Music, and was like, so stoked to graduate university and start working my full time job at CBC. And that is not what happened. When I graduated, it was very difficult to find a job anywhere, let alone CBC. And this was 2014, when like, these were the early days of mainstream podcasting coming to fruition. CBC podcasts, I think, launched in 2015 or 2014 at that point. So it was just beginning to start. 

So when I graduated and I had, like, no job, I was working under the table as a receptionist at a hair salon. I was working, I did like a couple of random stints. I worked for a startup for four years. And all along I was like, I need to make sure my skills in audio production are still relevant or else I’m literally never going to find my dream job. And so after six years of doing this and making podcasts on the side, when I realized that podcasts were basically public radio on demand,… 

MARY: Yeah.

KATTIE: …I was like, I’m just going to start freelancing. And then when I started freelancing, all of the conferences that I had been going to for podcasting as an indie podcaster and now as a professional, I started to notice how fractured the Canadian podcasting ecosystem seemed to be. It really seemed like all the professionals were working at CBC or for an American production company of some kind. And indie podcasters were sort of being left in the dust to pay all this money to go to podcast conferences, learn the same stuff over and over again, and then that was it. And I was like, nobody, like, I am all of those things, in my opinion. Like, I called myself a professional because I knew how to do it… 

MARY: Yeah. 

KATTIE: …And then I was like, well, I don’t want to be competing for jobs in America. Like, I want to know where the Canadian jobs are, and I want to be able to walk into a room and have conversations and network with the people at CBC and all these other national broadcasters. So, like, how do I connect all the dots here? So the more I kept freelancing and meeting more people in the industry and finding out what their workflow was like and who they knew in the industry, the more I was like, I have feelings, I have thoughts about the Canadian podcasting landscape and how fractured we are. 

So that’s why I decided to write Pod the North, long story short, [LAUGHTER] because I was like, I need a space. And I want to create some sort of space where Canadian podcasters can come together, where we all know what’s going on in the ecosystem, where we can share, share our thoughts and opinions and do deep dives so we all can, like, elevate each other and create some sort of, I don’t know, notoriety around the stuff that we do. So, and I think, honestly, I think Pod the North has been doing a little bit of that over the last few years. I think it’s really helped our industry, if I do say so myself.

MARY: And yes, I totally agree with that,… 

KATTIE: Thank you.

MARY: …because as a Canadian, right, Canadian podcaster, looking for resources and support and stuff like that, it’s all U.S.-based. And yeah, the jobs too. When I started my podcast production consulting company, that was in 2018, and even at that time I was like, looking for jobs and it was all like, LA, New York… 

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: …And I was like, I don’t, I don’t want to do that. But, like, why can’t we do a Canadian version, a stripped down smaller? Just because Canada always looks, I don’t know, not necessarily stripped down and smaller being a bad thing, but like the indie podcasts, how do we support that side of things instead of just the bigger, commercialized? 

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: Because I come from a radio background too, where it was commercial music. And so I wanted to somehow create that indie feel versus the, well, what’s the big revenue dollars? How do we market and monetize? And it’s always about money, money, money, which I understand and I get. But how do we still support the passion that most of the indie podcasters come with?

KATTIE: Yeah, the indie podcasting space in Canada I think is very different from the indie podcasting space in the U.S. as well, where, you know, as an indie podcaster, I know as an indie podcaster, anyone listening to this who’s been making a podcast off the side of their desk, who’s Canadian, probably understands that, like, it seems like in the U.S. if you start a podcast on your own and lift yourself up by your bootstraps like every VC tells you to do, or whatever it is, you can maybe actually make a living from it if you just keep working at it. And it just seems like there’s more dollars to spend on American podcasts than there is in Canada. 

We have a much lower population and that means Canadian podcasts that are directed towards Canadian audiences are just because of that, going to have a smaller audience. And that means for a lot of indie podcasters in Canada, it’s really difficult for us to actually make money from it. So that’s another thing that I’m constantly keeping my eye on, which is like, okay, that I think our metrics of success need to change or else like Canadians and just countries around the world with smaller populations just like, simply cannot live up to that expectation of being a full time creator, you know?

MARY: Yeah. And then there’s also like that idea of, Canadians are just much more reserved in like money spend and big investments… 

KATTIE: Yeah. 

MARY: …versus the United States. So like the way that we monetize and have ads and stuff here should be very different, I would think. 

KATTIE: Mhm. Yeah. Canadians are very risk averse.

MARY: Yeah.

KATTIE: And this is, this goes across all sectors too. It’s not just podcasting. Like, no matter what, we take a number of years to finally rev, like muster up the courage to like put ourselves out there and take a risk. And this is something that I think Canadians can maybe play around with a little bit more, which is like, let’s just kind of go for it because that’s how you innovate and become sort of like top of the pack anyway. So yeah, I’m hoping to, I’m hoping we see more risks in the Canadian podcasting industry. 

And I think we have actually lately, I don’t know if I would call them risks per se, but CBC Podcasts in particular, their team has been working with a lot of other production companies around the globe to put out podcasts. Even just being a distributor for American shows. And obviously that’s going to take a little mean, they’re going to take a little heat from the Canadians out there who are like, what the hell?… 

MARY: Yeah. 

KATTIE: …What are you doing? Why are you working with not Canadian stuff? But I think for a little bit there’s like, I think CBC sort of ebbs and flows maybe with the type of work that, with that they do, especially with the limited funding that they get, they have to sort of like pick and choose what they put a lot of investment into when it comes to Canadian content. And if they can make good shows with other production companies and not be spending all their money there, then hopefully that means they have more money to spend on Canadian content. So, we’ll see what comes out of that over the next couple of years because this is something that they’ve been doing like right now, basically.

MARY: Yeah, that’s an interesting take too because you kind of see that on not the podcasting side, but like the CBC Gem app,… 

KATTIE: Yeah. 

MARY: …you know, like the TV shows and stuff, like they’re bringing in TV shows from other parts of the world so that it’s, it’s not 100% Canadian, but you’re right. Then that means they get to spend more money in Canadian content.

KATTIE: Mhm. Ideally. Yeah.

MARY: Ideally. Exactly, yeah.

KATTIE: Yeah. [LAUGHTER]

MARY: But I love that perspective on things that I hadn’t thought about.

KATTIE: I tend to have a more optimistic perspective… 

MARY: I like that. 

KATTIE: …It might mean that I have a naive perspective too, but I’ll take it.

MARY: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And then there’s, you know, the whole thing of maybe people don’t even realize it’s a U.S.-based show, right?

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: Like, it’s that whole idea of CanCon, but for podcasting. And I relate it kind of back to. I used to host international students and they, because I’m on the west coast, most of them are usually from Japan and they come here, you know, they stay for however long they stay for. And they always get surprised though, because they, they ask so like, oh, what, what is Canadian? Such as like, who’s a Canadian artist, a musician, or a band, or something. And anytime I said someone, they were like, oh, I didn’t know they were Canadian. Everybody just thought they were American.

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: So then how does it look in terms of podcasting outside of like adding the word Canada or using Saskatchewan, you know, or something like that? How can we, if we wanted to show more of our Canadian pride and, you know, is there really a hindrance to that?

KATTIE: Hmm. It’s such an interesting question because, like, really at the end of the day, like, what is the difference between Canada and America? Like, not a lot, to be honest. [LAUGHTER] Like, we’re all multi. Like, we’re both multicultural. We’re on the same exact continent…

MARY: Yeah.

KATTIE: …Drawn between us is an imaginary border… 

MARY: Exactly.

KATTIE: …Both are like colonial states where we both fucked over indigenous people. And I apologize for swearing, but like, this is what I think makes Canada is the fact that we have colonial roots, that we’ve destroyed, like indigenous populations, and have a lot of reconciliation to do. But then also we have like a wonderful immigrant history and all of this stuff. And I think this is very similar in America anyway, but we just don’t see the stories talked about the same way there. So it’s just a cultural difference a little bit. But really there’s like, it’s pretty much the same. Like, we almost sound alike… 

MARY: Yeah. 

KATTIE: …Yeah. Like, it’s funny because for a long time I think when podcasting was first becoming sort of mainstream in 2014 and 2015, I think a lot of indie podcasters in Canada were very hesitant to mention any little bit of the fact that they might be Canadian. Not even mention, like the province that they’re from or even provinces or anything that might kind of put out there that they are a Canadian and not an American. And I think and believe, and was this person where I thought that mentioning that I was Canadian meant that I would have less credibility because just because Canadian media in general just doesn’t have the same type of support, doesn’t have the same type of industry or ecosystem that American media does. 

I mean, now Hollywood is kind of crumbling apart, so it’s hard to make that same comparison these days. But in 2014 and 2015, like, this was the hesitation where it was like, if you are thinking about being a competitor in the space, and for example, one of my podcasts is a travel podcast, if we wanted to be a travel podcast, then why would we mention that we’re Canadian when we want to just be focused on being, like, the best travel podcast out there kind of thing? But now there is an understanding, at least from my perspective, that everything can be shared through a Canadian perspective and a Canadian lens. 

And that actually makes things more interesting because we have a different culture and because we have different government and different regulations here. Anything that is talked about through a Canadian perspective is uniquely different. And now we, because Canada is seeing all these, like, pretty intense threats from the U.S. calling us the 51st state and stuff. There’s been, like, a new resurgence into patriotism, I guess. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah. 

KATTIE: And now people are proud to say that they’re Canadian and they’re not trying to hide it. And I think podcasters in particular want more Canadians to find their show, and they’re less focused on being a podcast for everyone and more being a podcast for an engaged community. And typically an engaged community exists in the same sort of country that you’re based in because you have shared perspectives. So I think there’s a new shift into being proudly Canadian on your podcast. And it might not be just like, putting “Made in Canada” in your podcast description or putting a little leaf on your artwork. It might just be coming up in conversation sort of by accident. And when somebody’s listening, they’re like, oh, cool, this person’s Canadian. I’m going to sort of stick around. 

And I would say that’s enough to be honest, because I think if you go any more harder in the paint, you start to verge into the territory of net Nationalism, and that can get a little scary. [LAUGHTER] So I think, like, Canadians can, I think we’re polite enough to sort of, like, keep it nice and modest about it. So, yeah, I think what Canadians should be doing, Canadian podcasters should be doing moving forward is, yeah, definitely putting “Made in Canada” in your podcast description and possibly a little leaf in your podcast artwork just to help Canadians find your content a little bit better. Like, taking advantage of search engine optimization and making sure that if you have the word Canada or Canadian in there and somebody types in Canadian podcast, that you are going to be recommended and people can find you so that they can support Canadian creators the way that they want to these days. So that’s a big, long rant about that.

MARY: I love it. But at the same time, I feel like there’s a bit of juxtaposition because you do also have another show called Canardian.

KATTIE: Yes.

MARY: Which is, like, almost opposite of what you were just saying.

KATTIE: It’s like ultra Canadian. 

MARY: Yes. 

KATTIE: Yeah. So, yes.

MARY: So it’s really hyper local, which is something I actually love, because in podcasting, when you niche down so much like this, I think you get to find your superfans better when you niche down. 

KATTIE: Totally.

MARY: I mean, I can honestly say too, when I look at your episode list, anything that is in BC, I’m like, I’m listening to that right away…

KATTIE: Yes.

MARY: …You know, like, White Rock just came up recently, and I’m like, I’m listening to that one. And it was hilarious because I related so much to all of the things that he said. And my in laws are in South Surrey, so like, I hang out there a lot. And so this hyper local thing that you’re doing with Canardian is amazing. So why then do that if you were just saying all these opposite things? [LAUGHTER]

KATTIE: Well, it’s funny. Funny you say that because actually talking about Canadian hometowns on this podcast, was actually the last thing that I thought about when it came to making it, which is wild, because that is literally the whole concept of the podcast is gossiping about Canadian hometowns. So I made Cadardian as the flagship podcast for Pod the North, my Canadian podcasting newsletter. And I knew I wanted to make a podcast that was a flagship of Pod the North, but I think the go to route there would be like, let’s make a podcast about the Canadian podcasting ecosystem. And I was like, I’m already writing about it so often. I just want to have fun, and I want to have a good time. And the whole point of the podcast, uh, was ultimately to highlight Canadian podcasters. 

So I was like, having somebody on to talk about their show isn’t going to be super compelling because nobody really truly enjoys listening to podcasts that are just 60 minute long advertisements. So I was like, I need to think about some way that I can bring on Canadian podcasters to highlight their personalities, make an audience fall in love with them, and then go listen to their podcast. So what is it exactly that I can do that will highlight their personalities and is something that literally anyone can talk about. And so I decided hometowns it is. So hometowns are something that literally anybody can talk about. And the more you keep talking about them, the more you kind of end up finding universal themes. 

So even though you’re talking about Lethbridge, Alberta, there are instances in that conversation that somebody from literally around the world can likely relate to in some capacity. Because history is a weird, weird thing. There’s a lot of weird history out there. And gossiping is something that anyone of any generation enjoys. So, and, and you might be able to hear influences of different podcasts in it too. Which is my biggest influence was the show Normal Gossip, which might be obvious why. 

MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER]

KATTIE: So every episode of Normal Gossip, if you’re not familiar, um, has the host tell one big long normal gossip story to their guest. And the guest on every episode is someone who works in media or entertainment in some capacity. So they might be a writer, a comedian, a podcaster, whoever it might be, and they sort of react to this story as it’s being told to them. So I really love that show because there are so many fun stories that would be unpacked in it. But I noticed in it, like, I loved that format, but the guests didn’t really get a lot to talk about. Like, they would just sort of be reacting, but they wouldn’t be contributing a lot. So I was like, I need to figure out some other way to highlight my guest personality so they can be more involved in the conversation. 

So giving them something to talk about, something that they’re familiar with, helps in that sense, which is their hometown. And then that’s why I also make sure that every episode is wrapped with an opportunity for them to tell me a story. And then I guess, whether it’s real or fake… 

MARY: Yeah I love that. 

KATTIE: …every episode ends with that. Oh, the other piece. The other influence of this has been Reddit story podcasts where people literally just read like, Am I The Asshole stories from Reddit? The People of the podcast just share their opinions about questions and stories that people have left on the Internet. And those are super engaging. Like, people love just to share their opinions all the time and just whether they’re hate listening or listening because they think the story is super wild. I was finding those shows pretty engaging to myself, so I was like, okay, I need to incorporate stuff off the Internet, give my guests an opportunity to share their opinions and make the listener also feel like they can be a part of that conversation and sort of share their opinions on these things too. So those have been, like, the two major influences of ways that I thought that I could highlight other people’s voices. 

MARY: I love it. It’s so brilliant.

KATTIE: Thank you. I worked really hard trying to come up the concepts. Yeah.

MARY: So, like, then my initial thought goes to, how long did you come up with? Like, how long did it take you to come up with that idea?

KATTIE: I think I spent like, an entire summer sort of coming up with it. Um, and there was a of talking with friends in the podcasting industry where I was telling them, these are my influences. I want to make sure I highlight Canadian podcasting voices. I want it to be fun and entertaining, and I, like, need to figure out how to go about this. And I forget who was my friend Jess came up with the title for the show. And I was just sort of just talking to people at podcast conferences and people in my like, peers and colleagues and stuff space. We finally were able to come up with this all together. So. Yeah, and we even wrote a theme song for it. And it’s got a really fun, like, punk rock theme song off the top.

MARY: Yes. Love that.

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: And I feel like that’s something that’s also not missing. But, like, a lot of podcasters in general forget that, you know, when you’re creating a podcast, it’s always, like, behind the mic, you might be doing an interview, and then, you know, you do your thing and then you do the next episode, and it’s always very siloed. But this idea of, like, you were able to talk with other people in your network and your friends and just coming up with this cohesive concept through other people’s ideas. So, how do you then facilitate more community interaction? Like, for, as a tip for, like, indie podcasters?

KATTIE: Ooh. Well, I would say, like, I think the biggest thing that a lot of indie podcasters think about is, like, should I go to this conference? Kind of a thing and I would say the answer is maybe. [LAUGHTER] The best conferences, I would say to go to in the indie space are ones that are affordable to you, ones that have a lot of room for networking and don’t have like a lot of programming all happening at the same time. Like maybe six stages with a lot of like, stuff happening. I kept calling them to you, Mary, before we started recording, like the cozy podcast where maybe you’ve got like one or two sessions that are happening. 

So ultimately attendees get to choose between one or two, or hanging out in the hallway kind of thing and talking to each other. Any opportunities where conferences give you that opportunity to talk to people, I think is the best. And that’s how I’ve built my connection and I’m genuinely curious about the space and I genuinely enjoy talking to people about how they thrive here, how they feel like, what they feel like they need to thrive here. So I’m happy to talk to other people. But the more you talk to people at conferences or just like podcasting events, the more you start to meet people who are in the exact same boat and then that’s when you can start to exchange information. And that’s where a lot of my learnings in podcasting have come from, has just been in my work as a freelancer and working with other freelancers on the same project and just learning from their skills and us teaching each other stuff, but then also going to some of the smaller sized events and meeting people there has been really, really awesome. 

I find like the bigger conferences that are almost like trade shows, they can get quite overwhelming and you really have to chase people down to go and even have a conversation. Half the time at those trade show ones, you just spend your whole, the whole day just running around, just trying to get to someone before they’re like, oh, sorry, I ended up in this, and it’s hard. So we can go to like some of the, any free podcast networking events I would say you should go to and even the virtual ones you should check out. 

And then once you meet some good people, keep them in your back pocket. Like something that I do once a month is I meet up with we have like a virtual call with some of my best girlfriends in the podcasting space. 

MARY: Oh nice.

KATTIE: So we, we just like, talk about how life is and we’ll catch up with each other, ask each other questions about the podcasting industry. We have a little WhatsApp group chat where we’ll ask each other things about rates and how, how to go about working with a specific client or how we deal with this one technical issue, like, having a little crew that you can kind of rely on is also super helpful. And that’s how you can actually probably help yourself become a professional, too, in the freelancing space, because then you’ve got people who can support you when you go on vacation, who you trust to take on your work. 

MARY: Oh. Yeah.

KATTIE: Which is huge as a freelancer answer, huge.

MARY: Yes. Yeah. And I remember having all those same questions, too, when I started out. I was like, 

KATTIE: yeah, 

MARY: what do you mean? Oh, I have to charge something now? You mean, like, yeah, you know, it was a salary job before, so I don’t know what I’m worth. Because in radio, my services were free.

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: You know, I would say.

KATTIE: Yeah, I would say, like, networking. And I hate even using the word networking because it feels like transactional, but just like, building as many relationships as you can that are genuine and earnest and honest with people is huge. Specifically in the Canadian podcasting industry as well, because once we show up for each other, like, we don’t stop. Like, I’ve seen the same people at the same events over and over and over again, and no matter what, even though they’ve already heard me talk about this one thing, they’re still going to show up and hear me talk about it again.

MARY: Yeah.

KATTIE: And we’ll always stay in touch. So it’s, having those good connections is a really, really huge benefit in Canadian podcasting, because once we start to uplift each other it’s kind of like, whatever that metaphor is about tides and ships.

MARY: Oh, yes. Lifting something about tides. Yes. [LAUGHTER]

KATTIE: Yeah. So, yeah, I think that’s what I’m seeing in the Canadian podcasting space, at least over the last couple years as well, has been just a lot of support for each other. So that’s been really cool.

MARY: That’s pretty awesome. I love that. Yeah, I have that in, like, my business side, where I have a business bestie, but I was like, oh, yeah. The podcasting side, where you can get really, like, specific and down to, like, the nitty gritty of it all.

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: That’s awesome.

KATTIE: I’ve been meeting more and more people who are also podcasters in Victoria, like, you are. And now I’m like, I need to plan a little meetup for you guys. Even if I can’t be there, I want to make it happen so you can all meet each other. [LAUGHTER]

MARY: Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, we’re. We like to be in our little caves, and Victoria is a funny place. Because when something is more than a 20 minute drive, it’s way too far. [LAUGHTER] So, like, when you say, I know people in Victoria, but I’m like, are they in Langford? Are they in downtown? Because if they’re in Langford, I’m probably not going to go out that way. 

KATTIE: Meanwhile, I have to commute to Toronto from Brantford, like, all the time. I feel so bad when I literally, all the meetups are in Toronto. So I’m literally, I’m in the process this summer of planning some meetups for podcasters in Hamilton and Burlington and places along the GO Train line in Ontario, so that people don’t have to make the full commute to Toronto.

MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER]

KATTIE: Because it can be intense. It can be very intense.

MARY: Yeah, we’ve. I’ve had some people move here from Toronto and they’re like, what do you mean 20 minutes is too far? I’m like, yeah, it is. [LAUGHTER] 

Kattie, this has been amazing. Before I let you go, just one last question to culminate this all, because, you know, as we were saying, the podcasting landscape, it changes a lot in things that we might have thought about in the beginning, you know, evolves, especially with the pandemic that has really changed the trajectory of podcasting. So since everything’s constantly changing, I want you to think about, like, right now, in this very moment. It is early June, as we’re recording this.

KATTIE: Yeah.

MARY: What are you excited about podcasting right now?

KATTIE: Ooh. [SIGH] There is a change happening in the podcasting industry that I think is going to hopefully lead to more money for independent podcasters. And that is this concept of the download dying. This is something that we talk a lot about at my day job at Bumper, which is a podcast growth agency, because of Apple changing things and all these reasons, downloads as a measurement of sales success is starting to kind of crumble. For those who aren’t familiar with this concept, downloads are really like a measurement of how many devices your podcast episode has been delivered to, but there’s no way to know if anybody has actually listened to it. 

And so I think something that Spotify and Apple have been jumping on has been measuring unique listeners, people who have actually clicked play on your show, consumption rate, getting an understanding of how long people have listened to your episodes for on average. Like, are they only listening to the first five minutes, or are they listening to, like, the whole episode? Because those are all valuable metrics when it comes to sponsorships as well, because you get to know how engaged your audience is. How long they’re listening for and all of that stuff. So Apple and Spotify are on it and I’m hoping that all the other podcasting platforms are going to jump on those stats as well too, because once they do, I think that’s going to make like, a huge shift in the industry where people can maybe sell ads for a higher price because they’re selling actual listens rather than the concept of somebody possibly seeing an episode. 

So I’m hoping that that might mean if people are selling verified listeners or consumption rates of some kind, that means that they can actually charge a higher rate than they are currently for like CPM models and that kind of thing. So hopefully this means that making money from a podcast is actually more accessible for indie podcasters. Because despite the fact that an indie podcaster might not have 10,000 downloads a month like most advertisers want, they might have 300 very, very engaged listeners who are listening a hundred percent of the way through. And they have just as much opportunity to sell mid roll ads, pre rolls and everything, because like, let’s imagine a room full of 300 people…

MARY: Yes, exactly.

KATTIE: …if you can sell something to like that’s pretty huge. And we know, uh, just from stats that have come out recently around podcast advertising, like we know that podcasts are still sort of like the number one place where people who are listening trust the ads that they’re hearing. So people are ignoring ads on social media, they’re ignoring ads on, the radio too, and on YouTube as well, which is also exploding in the podcasting space because they can just skip them. But podcasting seems to be sort of the place where people trust ads. So, I think there’s opportunity for indie podcasters hopefully coming in the future. That’s my naive, optimistic perspective. [LAUGHTER]

MARY: Back to the optimistic side. But I love that because we do need to look at something that is more tangible right now and have it integrated in your media hosting platform. Because yes, you know, no one logs into their Apple Connect and Spotify for Creators accounts. Like, we don’t have time for that. We go into our media hosting platform… 

KATTIE: Yes.

MARY: …because that’s where we’re going to upload our show and then we see our stats right away. So we’re like, oh look, I got X amount of downloads this week, yay. So it’ll be great when they get integrated together with that consumption side.

KATTIE: Yes. Because the downloads are, they’re going to be going away. Like the people don’t want things to automatically download to their phone anymore. And so, downloads are just dying. They’re not really a very good measurement. So I think there’s going to be a huge shift in that probably over the next five months. Barry. Like, it’s going to be crazy. 

MARY: That fast? 

KATTIE: Yeah. This is what we think at least. 

MARY: That’s exciting. Yeah. Because for a very, very long time I’ve been saying to, like on my show and to my clients and all of that, it’s like, downloads are not a thing, they’re just numbers. So what is your success for your podcast? What does that look like to you?

KATTIE: Exactly. Yeah, that’s great.

MARY: Great to hear.

KATTIE: Yeah. And then something else I’m hoping for is more live shows happening for podcasters. My next kind of deep dive on Pod the North is going to be. How the heck do you even get people out to your live show? Because unless you’re a deep, deep fan, like, it’s hard to get people out to your live podcast. But that’s where also indie podcasters can make money. So I’m going to be doing a little bit of digging into this to see how people can kind of take advantage of that and get people to come out, support them.

MARY: That’ll be fun. Because I think it was a little bit of a thing before the pandemic.

KATTIE: Mhm.

MARY: And then pandemic happened and everyone’s like, I’m not seeing anyone. Right? So it’s like this resurgence now of, I want to meet people in person. How do we make that happen?

KATTIE: Yeah. And there’s a lack of curiosity about discovering new podcasts via a paid ticket when you can discover a podcast for free when you just clicking on it. 

MARY: Yeah, mhm.

KATTIE: So I’m interested to see how that shifts to over the next little while. And maybe it just means there’s podcast openers for like, for a headliner, that kind of thing. So I’m going to be playing around with that a bit. 

MARY: Oooh. Of course, I’m going to be continuing to read that on Pod the North. Thank you.

KATTIE: Thank you very much.

MARY: Kattie, it’s been a pleasure. I know we will chat again, hopefully in real life one of these days, you know, in person.

KATTIE: Yes, yes.

MARY: But thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of your Canadiana thoughts.

KATTIE: Thank you so much for having me and listening to all of my thoughts and rambles. I very much appreciate it.

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MARY: Oh, I loved how Kattie was like, yeah, you don’t have to be Canadian, but yay, Canadians. [LAUGHTER] You know, that whole perspective on we don’t have to shout out from the rooftops. And that’s kind of how we are like, as Canadians, right? We are very humble and, you know, we don’t make a big splash about who we are, but it is really great to be able to celebrate who we are, especially in a space that really, we don’t get seen as that individual of a Canadian, right? Being that U.S.-centric podcasting space that we are in in North America. 

So I love the fact also that we talked about download numbers dying. You know, this is something that I’ve talked about for a very long time on this podcast to see that this is sort of coming to fruition, that download numbers are not a thing. They soon won’t be. And it is never about that, right? Like I always say, how can you use your podcast in a way that is still fulfilling to you in other areas, right? It’s about creating your own definition of success. 

So it’s good to see that it’s kind of leaning in that way. And like I was saying on the episode, I really do hope that they integrate these consumption numbers or these plays into wherever you host your show, right? So when you log in to upload your next episode, those same stats are going to be there too, because those are the ones that are actually going to matter whether you monetize or not. And yeah, on that monetizing thing too, right? Kattie’s thoughts is so, so similar, to my very last guest, Chidinma, who was on episode number 97, right? Canadians just spend money very differently. We have a monetizing landscape that really is not the same from that U.S.-lens. So a Canadian podcast doesn’t need to be treated that same way. So that metric also needs to be different. 

So, again, how are you creating your own definition of success for your show, right? So thank you so much, Kattie, for all your thoughts. And again, if you haven’t followed Pod the North newsletter at this point, please go and do that if you want to learn more about the podcasting landscape from that Canadian lens. But also listen to Canardian. It is so, so fun. Each and every BC episode I listen to because that’s the province I’m from and I live right now. So I hope you enjoy her show, if nothing else, just get some great entertainment value out of it, really like, I laugh along with them on a lot of those episodes, so tune in for that. 

And finally, like we were saying, that community aspect, it really is so crucial because in podcasting, we’re so siloed, we’re in our little office space with our laptops and microphones doing our thing. But it’s so great to have somebody on your side, whether that is just a friend who also loves listening to podcasts, a friend who creates podcasts, maybe you’ve got an editor on your team, or a writer, or someone who is helping you create the show. It’s such a great way to bounce ideas off of people. And in this case, if we can do it in person, even better, right? I want to be more in person. It’s a different resonance and feel and I’m actually planning on heading to Calgary in September. 

So if you’re listening to this before September in Calgary, it is PodSummit YYC. Check the show notes for that link. But as always, as of this recording in early and mid June of 2025, tickets are on sale. So fly out to Calgary if you don’t live there, or if you live there, I hope to see you there. Let me know if you will be at PodSummit YYC and let’s build more community together in person. That’s gonna be exciting. It’s that cozy conference feel that Kattie was talking about. I can’t wait to go check that out. And you know what, if nothing else, I’m gonna learn a lot from there and really just be absorbed with all the Canadianness and the people, and I get to learn and hopefully then, you know, in turn share that knowledge with you as well. So if you can’t be there, I think you’d be missing out because it sounds like it’s going to be an amazing time and I can’t wait for that, anyways, in person, PodSummit YYC.

Okay, that’s it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you want a full transcript and you want to make sure you get all the links, you can go to VisibleVoicePodcast.com for all of that. 

In the meantime, the next episode is going to be my last solo episode of the season before I go on my summer break and catch up on my rest and relaxation that I need. Woo. I’ve talked to a lot of people and it just seems like this has been such a year. So before we get on to my summer break, we are going to celebrate episode number 100, Finding Joy In Podcasting. Because as I keep saying, if it’s not fun, why are we doing it? Podcasting is meant to be fun, so it is also serious work. So how do we get around that? So episode number 100 is coming up next, and we’ll talk to you then.

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster’s guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

<< WOMAN SINGS: Let’s go >>

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