Priority Production Tasks for the Solo Podcaster with Emma Krebs – Episode 111

[DRIVING GUITAR THEME MUSIC IN // GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

MARY: When was the last time you analyzed all the tasks you had to do to make your podcast happen? I mean, really got down to the granular. Like, details about conceptualizing, the research, making your notes to even recording, editing, scheduling, promotion. I mean, I’ve listed all the overall tasks, but again, down to the granular, I’m talking details. When have you ever written all of that stuff down? I mean, I don’t think I have either, right? At least not in a very, very long time. Because when you get into a cadence and a groove for making your show, you tend to spit out an episode each time and then move on to the next one because there are just so many tasks to accomplish. 

So when I do sit down and think about each individual task I do to create an episode, I start to realize you’re not just the host of your show, you’re essentially a producer as well. Yet a lot of people wonder, what does a producer really mean? Like, how many jobs are you doing when you host your own show? Producer is just one of those tasks, but it’s a big one. So what does a producer do for a podcast? And how does thinking like one support your show? And a short answer. A lot, actually. 

So today we’re gonna zoom out a bit and we’re gonna take a peek behind the curtain with a podcast producer whose work spans the creator economy, collaborating with such as the Minimalists, Eamon and Beck, and most recently, Dr. Mark Hyman. She has worked across the Canadian, UK and US industries and is so passionate about helping others build sustainable, behind the scenes careers in the podcast industry. 

I’m bringing you Emma Krebs. We’re going to talk about what you do when you actually put on that producer hat. Including, you know, funny enough, in the last episode we talked about intros, and she mentions how mindful an intro really needs to be. So make sure you listen to that part of the episode. We also dive into women in the workplace, especially for podcasting, and how influential what you can do in the industry to really change perspectives on how we can really show representation in the podcasting industry. 

This is episode 111 with Emma Krebs on the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

<< WOMAN SINGS: So so so so let’s go >> 

Emma, Emma, Emma, I love chatting with you. So thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

EMMA: It is truly my honour. Thank you so much for inviting me, Mary. I’m so excited to be here.

MARY: Okay. I remember when we first met, [LIGHT LAUGHTER] you were like, oh, yes, I’m a producer. Da, da da. And I was like. And then somebody walked up to us. And they’re like, wait, what’s a producer? 

EMMA: Oh yes. 

MARY: And I feel like that has been my lifelong question that people have always asked me, because when I worked in radio, my title was producer. And then eventually they were like, wait, I guess we have to be more specific. So they called me a commercial producer, which meant I made all the commercials. But growing up in the 90s, people know producer as Frasier’s show. Roz was the producer for the talk show. So they always thought that’s what I did. And I’m like, no, no, no, that’s not what I do as a producer. But in podcasting, it also means something totally different, which is something that you do. So in your role and how you see a producer and what you do, describe what producer means for you.

EMMA: Ooh. Well, I always say a producer is a jack of all trades, but master of none. And I often say that it’s an umbrella term. But a producer is essentially, I feel like the person that brings the show to life. And you wear many hats because you are doing so many different things within the show to bring it to life, right?

MARY: Yeah. What does that look like? Because I think people, when they are independently creating their own show, they also have to be that producer, right?… 

EMMA: One hundred percent. 

MARY: …They are also like you, wearing the many hats. So how many hats do you put on?

EMMA: Yeah. I always say, too, to people that are like solo podcasters, that not only are they the host of the show, but I try to, I always try to remind them, like, you are also the producer of the show. That is a whole other arm to it that I feel like people don’t acknowledge. And it’s so much effort. I feel like the first thing I would say is, like, a producer is the first audience. They’re always representing the audience within the room. And so, whether you’re in pre-production, post-production, you always have the audience in mind. 

And so in regards to my current show that I work on, I am a lot more into, like, the logistics and the operations of the actual show. So I am thinking about guest booking and guest strategy, a lot of that pre-production. I create all of our prep documents for our host, which is quite a big lift. I work for Dr. Mark Hyman, so considering he is a doctor, there’s, um, a lot of information. Information for me to pull. I pull a lot of studies and stuff like that and prepare that for our guest while also thinking about, like, the angle of the conversation and just kind of outlining what the conversation could look like. 

I do pre-interviews with each of our guests and then when we go into the actual recording, I’m there virtually if I cannot make it in person. And I will like live produce. So I often don’t like to interrupt the flow of our conversations. But at the end, if I wanted to circle back on something or you know, have that audience ear in mind and think, you know, we got too high level here, or as a listener, I feel like they might want to ask this follow up question. Then we’ll do those kinds of pickups and at the end of the conversation with the guest, then I will lead our editor on our edits. I’ll work with him to execute those. I’m not in the timeline, but I’ll tell him what we want to cut if we want to rearrange the conversation. 

I write our intros so we are very, very mindful of our intro, the first 1 minute, 30 seconds of our conversations. And so we actually work with like, an agency to bring those to life because we also do a video side to our podcast. So I write those and work with our agency to do that. And then I do just like all coordination and communication with our guests as well too. So like, once the episode actually publishes, I will contact them, give them all the assets, etc. And yeah, I mean that’s overview,…

MARY: That’s a lot.

EMMA: …but you know, Mary. Yeah, there’s, there’s so many other things that come up in between that that I’m probably not thinking of. But those are kind of like the main things that were probably on my contract when I signed it. [LAUGHTER] But there’s always side quests we take or…

MARY: Yes. 

EMMA: …we’re developing new shows currently, so I work with our director to kind of strategize those. Yeah, many things, but a lot more I think communication, emails, that kind of stuff, spreadsheets, sadly, that people might not know, considering it is a creative industry.

MARY: What kind of spreadsheets? Okay, you don’t have to like spill all the detail and the secrets, but like, what kind of spreadsheets are you creating?

[LAUGHTER]

EMMA: I love a spreadsheet. I learned that from a friend a couple of years back. But, um, like our production calendar, I always create in the spreadsheet. I find it’s easiest. So maybe not like it is maybe a bit more colourful and colour coded or analytics tracking I do and then also guest booking. Considering my host is like, lives a very unconventional life and his calendar is very unique and difficult to book in, I will like, use that a lot of times for guest booking and like calendar management.

MARY: That makes a lot of sense. 

EMMA: Yeah. 

MARY: And you also, you were talking about like research and angle of the conversation and stuff. And I think that’s a lot of what podcasters either love or hate when they have an interview style show. It’s like, well, I’m just showing up for a conversation. So like, how much prep do I need? Or I also see the opposite end of the scale, which is like, they’ve prepped so much that they could probably have an interview with the person for like hours on end. So what kind of research prep are you putting in to share with the host? And like, how much does the host actually use the prep that you create?

EMMA: I am one of the people that loves the prep side of things. I’m a naturally curious person and like, I started my career by starting my own show and that was always like my second favourite part of the experience. My first part was definitely the conversation, the connection with the guest. I. It’s funny because I was literally thinking about that the other day. Like, if I was to ever graduate from this job, maybe I, I don’t want to. Like, I really love my team and love the show, but I just think that I am very odd in my love of the prep in the pre-production. So I just always think I’m like, are other people like this?…

MARY: Oh yeah. 

EMMA: …Because if not, maybe it’s an opportunity.

MARY: Yeah, I like to get nerdy sometimes, right?

EMMA: Right. Yeah. My personal thing, and it doesn’t always correlate with the show. Like, I always want to know who a person is on like, like in my real life, you know, like who they are at their core and like why they think the way they do and just understand their perspective more. And so I feel like when I’m doing my prep, I’m always subconsciously seeking that out, even though maybe I’m just learning about perimenopause and this individual’s research on it or this doctor’s research on it. You know what I mean? But at the same time I’m always looking for like, well, why did they get into this research? 

And so that’s often where I really see value in the pre-interviews because I can find a lot of information about these individuals work. But you know, you can ask those extra questions at the pre-interview. So yeah, my preps are a lot of pulling all of the research or books or just any of the work that the guest has done, but then also summarizing like their, their personal life, as I mentioned, like where did they grow up, how, what were their biggest influences that they’ve had, and things like that. But it ends up being about 15 pages long. 

And so, that being said, to answer the second part of your question, how much does the host read or use? This is part of being a producer, is working with your talent and trying to find how they operate and how you can best support them. I’ve only been on this show since July, and so I feel like I’m still figuring that out. But meeting my host in person was really valuable to understand more about how he operates. 

And so my goal with our prep on this current show is to provide as much information as I can in the prep, where if our host sat down and just read the prep, he would know everything that he needs to know about this guest. He does not need to open an external link, he doesn’t need to do a Google search. It should all be there for him in a concise manner. And because he is the expert, I do provide suggested questions and angles that I want to take the conversation. But considering he’s the Doctor and I’m not, that is also where I kind of like, allow his own curiosity to lead. 

But that said, that’s why it helps to be there for the recordings. If there was like, you know, maybe something that, due to, like, a sponsorship agreement or just something that I thought was really important that wasn’t hit on, it’s really great that I’m there for the conversation because we can circle back while still allowing the talent to follow their own curiosity, which is very important to lead that conversation as well.

MARY: So when the host doesn’t have that much time for the prep. You were saying to me at one point, you could have 15 pages.

EMMA: Yeah.

MARY: Does he read the 15 pages? [LAUGHTER] Like, you know, I also feel like there,t. There are some days where, as you know, producer, myself, and having a producer on the team, it’s like, we do all this work and then sometimes it barely ever gets used. But we know it’s appreciated because it helps their mindset, you know, to get into the episode before the recording. But do you ever feel like you’re wasting your time creating, like, 15 pages worth of stuff?

EMMA: Yeah, this is. It’s funny you say that, because I think this is one of my current biggest, I don’t want to say challenges, but opportunities is like, how do I summarize it and make it as concise as possible? Because I think I am too lengthy, you know? And I do want to try and really provide a system that provides him just like what he really needs to know. But as I said, I feel like I’m still building that relationship with him, what he’s curious about. 

And so, one thing that is so minor, but I hope it’s helpful, and I think it is, is providing, I use Google Docs. I’m a Google Docs queen…

MARY: Me too. 

EMMA: …I’m obsessed with Google. Okay, cool. Controversial. Sometimes. One setting that I love in it is like the header setting. You know, how you can make different headings?

MARY: Yes. 

EMMA: Which I think is helpful for him because then. And I keep using Mark as an example, but I’ve done this for other shows I’ve worked on too, because you can kind of jump around, right? So say he’s asking the guests a question. He has his prep in front of him while he does the recording as well too, which includes the question. So say he wants to ask a question about the latest study. He can toggle just like on the left to these headers and just kind of jump around into different timelines of the guest research or maybe their lifetime, you know what I mean? And I really do try to categorize it in a way that is effective for him in that conversation. 

So that’s one method I do use. But I think you have to accept the like, kill your darlings kind of like you would edit of like,…

MARY: [LIGHT LAUGH] Yes. 

EMMA: …you’re gonna put this effort in. And personally, maybe it’s anxiety or maybe it’s how I operate. I need to do the prep to that extent and make sure I do cover all of the bases just in case for that one opportunity that the guest does need that, you know, minor point or something like that of like, we had a guest one time and he used to work walk with, go to the Martin Luther King Jr. like the protests and stuff like that. And we did not anticipate that to be embedded into the conversation, but somehow like a reference came in and that was actually in our prep, which was from a conversation that, like, was so many years back that I had family found. 

You know, there’s just sometimes those moments of magic where that extra level of prep is helpful. And so I’m just willing to put in that leg work to hope for that one in ten, maybe one in a hundred times that it’s useful. I’m not saying it’s productive. [LAUGHTER] Well, maybe, maybe. But I’m fully with you, Mary. It’s a lot of work.

MARY: Yeah, I mean, you get to nerd out too, when you’re doing all that research… 

EMMA: Yeah. 

MARY: …and stuff and use the spreadsheets and create the docs and all of that. 

EMMA: Yes.

MARY: So it’s not like you’re doing it and like hating your life, so.

EMMA: Exactly.

MARY: There’s. There’s a piece of that too.

EMMA: One hundred percent. And I think the one caveat is that, like, it’ll be clear in this conversation. And Mary, you know this, like, I love my job and all of the shows that I’ve worked on, like the majority of them, especially the ones that I’ve been like, a lot more involved in than maybe just like a freelance, you know, part time edit kind of thing. I really love the topic as well. And for me that’s really important to believe in the show, to believe in the host, to believe in the message that we’re conveying. And so I think that also is a huge factor to like, my need and my drive to, to find all the fun facts about our guests.

MARY: You were mentioning earlier that, you know, your intro is like a minute and thirty seconds. And coincidentally the episode before this one, I was talking about how to create like a purposeful intro. And I would love to hear why you guys decide to go with, you know, a minute thirty and how you created your purposeful intro.

EMMA: Yeah, kind of stepping more into this like, creator economy. So I work in the podcasting industry, but I produce a video first podcast, I would say. We publish our podcast on YouTube and um, it is a big part of our, of our show. And so this is really where my YouTube hat comes on as a producer is this intro. It is very important in podcasting as well. And we use the same intro on our audio and our video feeds. It is something I’m always trying to change and see what’s new and what’s working and what’s not. But we usually like to keep our intros around 1 minute to 1 minute and 30. 

And I have a bit of a structure that I personally use. But that being said, I, yeah, I feel like I’m also. This is the other really important piece beyond the prep. Like this is such an important part in prep, in pre-production. I’m already beginning to think about our intro so that once we do get into the conversation, in an ideal world, you know, we would really have that in mind when we’re also thinking about our title and our thumbnail. That should all be discussed in pre-production. But that being said, I feel like it’s a bit more tricky with a podcast because you can’t control as much of the conversation rather than like, a scripted YouTube video. You have full control. 

It’s very important to me to kind of share a bit about our current template that we use, which could change. I just want to caveat that, like, it is such a changing industry, is we don’t no longer use like a moment from the show, which is something I’ve done and in the past on other podcasts, which was really valuable and it might work for your show. I really recommend experimenting. But how the intro starts out is often with a hook. So something where you like, without sounding crude, but you’re essentially trying to like punch the viewer in the face or like slap them, you know, with this, like YouTube.

MARY: It’s a YouTube strategy.

EMMA: Yeah, it is, it is. And so, I also try to have that hook be really connected to the overall message of the. Of the podcast, but also to tied into the title as well. And like the title is also adjacent to the thumbnail. So it’s all kind of connected. So we just published an episode on IVF. And so her main point in the podcast is that IVF is become so popular and it’s such a valuable and amazing thing that science has done. But at the same time she really advocates for kind of using it as a check engine light of if you’re having fertility problems before going straight to IVF. And so I know that that first sentence kind of summarizes that. And it is a bit controversial, right? It isn’t something we’re often hearing, at least in what I’m seeing online. And so that’s our first kind of hook. 

And then from there, I do kind of like to create open loops, as people call it, where you kind of are summarizing or hitting on different points that are going to be discussed within the conversation. And I also like to have a moment of voice over that we create or sorry, that we record in post production that mark. It’s in our host voice. But I see a lot of other people using different AI voices which we’ve tried and I just personally don’t like. That’s maybe just a personal preference. Where you’re really just trying to, in one to two sentences, to really make the guest seem like the expert, right? So this is where we’re saying, like, this is a Harvard researcher or, you know, you’re kind of providing their accolades blades and. And kind of who they are. But, you know, one to two sentences, which is kind of tricky, you know, so we write those, we really think about writing those. 

And then, yeah, we just create like another closed loop at the very end. Just to clarify, my intros are all clips from the actual podcast in themselves. So it’s not actually our host saying the full intro. What I was referencing there of like that hook and stuff like that. And unclosed loops. Yeah. I have also done, which I really like. And as a listener and I think people like Mel Robbins does a great job. I fully recognize I’m touching on like, guest style interviews and stuff like that. And there’s so many different types of podcast episodes and formats. 

But, someone like Mel Robbins also does a really good job of kind of embedding like, voice over and clips from the podcast, which I also think is a really valuable intro. We just, it doesn’t currently work with our workflow and like, we’re remaining with what we’re doing now where essentially like you create VO in post and then you kind of like, sprinkle in little moments from the podcast. I always think those are really well done as well too.

MARY: You know, one of the other things that people always ask me is like, yeah, but how do you choose those clips? Like, are you actually creating a transcript you’re reading through or are you like watching and listening to the entire thing and picking it out? Like how much of your time is put into selecting these clips as well?

EMMA: One thing I want to mention now before we go further is like, I am in a unique situation and I’ve never worked on a show with this much support and resources… 

MARY: Right. Yeah yeah yeah. 

EMMA: …and I want to clarify that this is not normal, right? Like I, I know I’m in a unique situation and I’ve worked on shows where I’m the only person on the show, right? It’s me. And maybe the host or maybe it’s just me. And so I really also want to clarify that too. Like, I am talking about this experience, but it’s like, take what works and leave the rest.

MARY: Yes, exactly.

EMMA: And I think the biggest thing I would say too with the intros is experiment and just try and see what works for you, for your workflow, what you have bandwidth for and what your audience responds to. To your question in pulling those out. So when I am in the recording, I sometimes if I feel like it’s, to me, it’s an innate thing. And I feel like all podcast people, you listen to a show and you hear a sentence, whether you said it or you guess it, and you’re like, wow, there’s just a moment where you kind of like pause or something really resonates for you and you might not know why I always write those moments down if they come to me in recording. 

But usually in recording, you have so many things you’re thinking of. If you’re the host, you’re trying to remember if you hit record,… 

MARY: Yes. 

EMMA: …you know, you have so much already happening in your head. So when I’m either doing the edit or, like, working with my editor and watching the episode back, that’s usually when I will just kind of like, do a first watch and be like, like, no pressure here. I’m just gonna watch it. And if there’s moments that really, like I said, resonate with me for whatever reason, I write those down with the time codes. And then once I do that, I will then kind of think about my more formal intro. And since I do, like, the paper edit of it, then I will, like, have to get a lot more granular about, like, our, or what it’s gonna be. And so while I’m always listening back to the conversation, I do have a transcript in front of me. I just find it so helpful. 

And then once I do the paper edit, I send it off to the individuals that create our intro. And I will also say, if you’re doing it in that way, it does also sound different when you’re listening to it. Like, once you actually cut it down and also like, or if, when you watch it, because certain parts might not work as you thought they did. So feel free to also, like, massage it once you’ve put it in the timeline or cut it down a bit too. 

So, yeah, I just. There’s just usually little moments that I feel like either, like, really are like, statistics are always really helpful if. If that’s relevant to your show. Or like a fact or maybe a really emotional point or I do really sit with the kind of, like, there’s usually an overarching theme with your conversation. And so, if there’s like a sentence that really summarizes their main point or, you know, it’s kind of like their biggest point, that’s usually something I’ll also pull down too. I pull like 50 quotes and I probably only lose like 10, right?

MARY: Sort of that research background you’re talking about before. 

EMMA: Yeah. I’m like, oh, man, I’m doing too much. But those are helpful too, because I find those are often where I also select our social clips from is those moments too. So you can also use them for other things as well.

MARY: Yeah, and I,. I find s. Same thing. It’s like that emotional punch to the face, I guess you were saying, right. You know, and pulling a clip from an AI transcription is never going to get that.

EMMA: No.

MARY: It’s never going to get that emotional pull.

EMMA: No, I’ve experimented and maybe I’m not using the right ones, but I still do this all very manually. Yeah.

MARY: Yeah, yeah, we do too, because. Yeah, but people are like, do you try AI? I’m like, I’ve tried it, it just…

EMMA: Yeah.

MARY: …and then I try it again because I think, well, it’s probably innovated since we’ve tried it, but no, it’s still, there’s something about the human ear and the human heart and the brain that we…

EMMA: I completely agree.

MARY: …we hear it, we know it, we see it, we understand it differently.

EMMA: Definitely.

MARY: And you were saying too, like, special situation with having this team. And even before you were saying that, I was thinking that as well. Like you are on this, this team in this situation that most podcasters don’t get to have, right? Again, we are putting on many hats when we’re producing a show. So, like, from all of these things that you’ve mentioned so far, what are like, the key things that we should, I don’t want to use should, but like, what are some of the key factors that you’re like, you know, what, do a few of these things or start thinking about some of these items.

EMMA: Yeah, that’s a really good point. And I think that’s like 99% of podcasters, right? 

MARY: Yeah. 

EMMA: Whether they do have some additional support or a lot of additional support, like, or no additional support like these. I know we’re all limited because we also have lives and a lot of people are doing this as a hobby as well too. 

MARY: Yes.

EMMA: Right? It’s not their main source of income and so they have to fulfill their time. Also getting an income. I understand. Personally, I would really say focus on pre production and spend more time in pre production maybe than you think. And I know maybe I’m flogging it here, but as I think we, we discussed either on this, on this recording or maybe slightly before, maybe just taking some extra time to really like maybe look at this person’s Instagram. If again, I’m speaking to a guest, kind of like an interview style podcast, or like just kind of if you can’t read, if you’re having an author on, if you can’t read their whole book, maybe like really just spend some more time reading their intro and the outro and think about what kind of direction you want to take the episode. 

If I’m getting in the weeds and if I’m saying that you’re also creating a YouTube or, sorry, a video podcast, which is a whole other lift. And I have my own thoughts on if people should do video or not. [LAUGHTER] But if you are doing video as well, and it is important for audio as well too, but I, I feel like it is slightly more important for video is really thinking about that intro too. So I would say like that intro and the pre production would be the, the time that I would honestly say spending your, your extra time if you have it. 

The more prep you can do before the interview, the better the interview is going to be, which is going to make your post-production so much more efficient. And I know that editing is such a lengthy process and if you’re doing it yourself, you know, you can really have an easier flow of the conversation and less editing to do in post if, if you spend that extra time to think about what you will discuss with the guest.

MARY: Yeah. And I think that’s a differentiating factor when most people are like, well, I don’t have time to edit, so I’ll just let it, you know, flow how it flows. But at the same time, when you’ve done all that prep, you don’t have to do as much editing in post.

EMMA: A hundred percent, unless the guest makes mistakes like I have. But yes, I’m kidding, I’m kidding. 

MARY: It’s all good. All good. All good.

EMMA: Um, no, I completely agree with you, Mary.

MARY: When I say edit, I mean like, you know, the, the content editing… 

EMMA: Yeah. Yeah. 

MARY: …and or you’re taking things out or rearranging things. Like most people don’t have time to do that part of the edit. 

EMMA: Mhm.

MARY: However, I mean, I said content edit and usually people are like, oh, well, content. I don’t want to be a content creator. Yet as a podcaster we have elements of that, right? Like there’s the negative connotation of like, being a content creator and monetizing and everything that, and not all podcasters like that like you were saying. And there’s, there’s passion projects, but there are things that we want to learn and take away. 

You know, video is such a big thing right now. Just because YouTube’s doing it, Spotify’s doing it. Like every, the big platforms are moving in that direction. So I feel like the industry as a whole is like, ooh, you gotta have video. Yet video and audio are two very different audiences. And I know you mentioned it a little bit earlier, your opinion on video versus audio. Lay it on me, what is that opinion?

EMMA: Well, I just want to clarify. I feel like everyone feels the pressure now to do video for their podcasts. And I, one, think it’s a completely different medium, right? 

MARY: Yeah.

EMMA: I got into podcasting because I loved that it was an audio only medium. I loved y. You didn’t have to know what I looked like. You didn’t have to. I didn’t even, I was so naive at that point. I didn’t even know that it would be extra work. 

MARY: Yeah. 

EMMA: Right? To create the videos side of things as we’ve really hit home, like 99% of podcasters are independent creators and a lot of this is like hobby and, and, and maybe a part of their job, right? Or a part of their business, whatever it may be. And I just want to hit home just how big of a lift video is. And so I necessarily like, I really push people to really question why they feel the need to do video. Is it because you’ve just watched Call Her Daddy or something? Or you, you just see these big creators, these 1% that are doing it and you, or you know, these “experts”, quote unquote are telling you to do it. I really question why people are want to do it and then just like really get realistic about the lift. To produce just a regular audio first podcast, but also to like the realities of video. 

The one method I kind of put is like a hybrid for individuals that are like, right Emma, I know that you’re saying to just kind of like walk before I run, create a really good audio for show. But like I really do want to do some sort of video. So I think a great idea that I’ve picked up, I don’t know where from but is recording the video whether you’re doing a virtual episode. So like it’s on Zoom, or Riverside, or you can even set up just like your phone if it’s a solo show and recording the video, but then only using it for social media clips and like, for like kind of marketing purposes. I feel like that could be a bit of a balance. That said, I don’t want to diminish that. That’s not a lot of work too, you know,…

MARY: Yes. 

EMMA: …it is a lot of work. And so yeah, I know like Riverside, if you’re recording virtually on Riverside side that it does some like, it pushes out some clips for you too. But I just want to say like really think about why you’re creating video and don’t feel the pressure to do video because even like think about a narrative style show, like those are so underrated and I feel like there’s such opportunity there if you’re doing heavy sound design and all this amazing stuff that you can do with audio. If you’re trying to put video with it, like, you’re gonna ruin it, I think. And so, yeah, that’s my bit of a, of a hot take there.

MARY: Yeah. And it’s, that’s why people were like way back in the day because I used to be in radio when TV came along, right. Like MTV and all of that. They were like, oh, video is going to kill the radio star. 

EMMA: Mhmm.

MARY: And you know, radio still exists. So it’s podcasting exists.

EMMA: Yeah. 

MARY: It’s an audio. Well, traditionally podcasts are an audio platform, so it’s not like we have to do video. And I was actually talking to somebody recently. She’s an independent creator and she was asking also about like, funding and how do I get this off the ground. And then I was asking her about, like, future goals. What do you want? And she’s like, oh, yeah, I feel like maybe future. I gotta think about video. I’m like, but yeah, do you have to? And then I was telling her about like, how nobody wants to watch another Zoom meeting as a podcast video, right? 

EMMA: Yeah. 

MARY: Like we’re, we’re tired of being in online chats all the time. So why is a podcast like that as well? So you really have to think about like your lighting, your background for yourself and your guests and editing and all of the stuff. And then she was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that is a heavy lift where audio is a totally different world. You can still create something very meaningful with just the audio only first approach.

EMMA: Totally. Yeah. Even just equipment and the. Not only your time, which is your biggest resource, right? But even just the price of these tools. Cause I also agree with you, Mary. Like, unfortunately, I think, think the bar for video is like higher too nowadays…

MARY: Yeah. 

EMMA: …just with like the tools that are out there and like I said, these big shows that are producing like, which it kind of makes me upset now because I’m like, that’s what I always loved about podcasting was like a low barrier to entry. You know, it’s intimate, it’s gritty sometimes, you know, Whereas now it’s just like late night talk shows, which is fine. But like, for me, that’s not really what. Why I fell in love with podcasting too, right? So. So yeah, you don’t need to have a whole set.

MARY: Yeah. The video podcasts these days are late night talk shows. That’s what they are now. 

EMMA: Yeah. Yeah. 

MARY: I feel like that’s what they want to become. Because late night talk shows are being canceled on network television. So they want to create their own platform. And now that’s what video podcasts tend to look like from the big 1% of shows.

EMMA: Totally. And where they get a lot of inspiration, I feel like from as well too, right?

MARY: Yeah.

EMMA: These new podcasts.

MARY: Yeah, yeah. And fair enough, right. If that’s what the big platforms are pushing, then that’s what the public is seeing. And so they might think, okay, if this is what actually is what’s happening as a quote unquote successful show, and I want to be successful, then how do I emulate that?

EMMA: Yeah, definitely.

MARY: And that is what happens in the human world. We just look up to others, whether that actually has good representation or not. That’s another story for another time. Now that I started thinking about that.

EMMA: Fun fact for you. 

MARY: Yeah. 

EMMA: I was looking it up before because I know this is something we are both, uh, quite passionate about the source of this is USC Annenberg. 64% of hosts of the top 100 podcasts are men compared to 35% are women.

MARY: Yes. I’ve seen that report. Yes.

EMMA: Right? And the other stat that I thought was, at least for me, more applicable to my role and the impact I can have is 72% of podcast gain guests are men, whereas 27% are women. And so I currently have a lot more impact in our guest strategy and who we are putting in representation and really trying to. Yeah. Be mindful of that as we are selecting our guests too. But yeah, I mean there’s, there was way more stats to that as well too. But I fully am with you on that, Mary.

MARY: And I feel like it hasn’t really changed too much. And um, thinking back to when I was in radio as well, because radio, very male dominated industry. When we have like the morning show host is like, the big show, right? And it’s, it’s usually men are the hosts. If there is a woman, they are just the sidekick or they do the news or the weather and traffic and that’s all we’re relegated to. 

And then when podcasting came along, yeah, you saw very few female hosts in those top shows. And so I feel like with that barrier to entry with the video as well, where women are always. More opinions about women’s looks are generally made. So like we, we have that barrier to entry with video as well. So having podcasting as an audio platform really removed some of those barriers for women to have shows. Even though we still don’t see a lot of women hosts in that top percent, which is changing but I feel like it’s not changing fast enough.

EMMA: I completely agree. I know. And like, the industry is. We always say to other people, they think it’s new. Obviously it’s been around for over 20 years. But one of the beautiful things about the industry is, like, it is still developing and is such in early stages where, like, we can create the foundation of it, right? And so it’s important, I feel like, to have these conversations now, because although we’re 20 years in, I do think that we can learn a lot from also, like, traditional. I have a lot of friends that worked in traditional media, traditional television, that are transitioning into, like, whether it’s podcasting, or more specifically YouTube, that are really advocating to really set a strong foundation and learn from their experience in traditional and, and in all levels. 

Even just like, like, like pay rates, transparency on pay and stuff like that. So many things that, like, these are really important conversations to be having. I feel like, within spaces to call out, like, what shows that currently exist. But also I think something else I’m passionate about is, like, work, like the individuals working within the industry and to be transparent with one another and to really brainstorm and, and communicate and share tips and insights and so, yeah, yeah.

MARY: Yeah. I feel like podcasting is a very collaborative industry. There still is some, like, gatekeeping and stuff that happens in any industry, but I feel like because of that indie grassroots approach, like, we do help each other out a lot. And I love seeing people like you in a producer position. So that, like you said, we. We can change the landscape of what guests look like and how the host can have a different perspective, and you bring that on, being a woman on the team. So thank you for doing what you do.

EMMA: You don’t need to thank me. It’s also like, women like you, where I don’t mean to blow sunshine over your butt right now, [LAUGHTER] but I remember, I thought you had mentioned in the beginning of the show, when you were gonna talk about how we met, you were gonna talk about how I was talking to you, and then our mutual connection Jessica Schmidt came up and was like, Mary Chan, I’ve been waiting to meet you. 

MARY: Right? 

EMMA: And I was like, I’m in the presence of a celebrity… 

MARY: Aw, yes. 

EMMA: …I didn’t know it, but it’s women like you have really, like, um, gone ahead and built your career. And I’m looking up to you. You’ve been in the industry longer than me, and you’re someone that, like, I met who’s been so helpful, so knowledgeable, so willing to share, to connect. You’re curious, you know what I mean? And like, we’ve followed up since we, we met, ah, a year ago at PodSummit, you know what I mean? And so, like, you really laid the foundation for individuals like me coming behind you and in the industry just even to show me what’s possible. 

So, yeah, I’m hopeful for where it goes. Maybe I’m being too naive when I say that, but I’m just surrounded by such amazing women in my life, um, and within the industry specifically, that it does give me hope of. Okay, we are advocating and hopefully just over time, we can just the landscape can look like how we want it to look. 

MARY: Yes.

EMMA: I don’t know, I might be too naive with that and I don’t want to completely dismiss other people’s experiences.

MARY: First of all, thank you for all the nice things you said. But secondly, I don’t think it’s naive. It’s not bad to have a positive outlook. Right? We can only change if we can envision what that could look like. If we don’t see what the future can look like, how do we know what to do now to carve our path to get there?

EMMA: Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. That is a really good point, Mary, yeah. 

MARY: So as we close out this conversation, you know, we’ve talked a lot of serious stuff towards the end here, but again, what does that future look like to you? What are you excited right now about podcasting to get to that future?

EMMA: I don’t know if it’s too in the weeds is the conversations that are happening, like in the dark behind the scenes amongst my peers, the honest and frank conversations, people calling people out, that need to maybe be called out, not in a cancel culture kind of way, just, you know, just, just shining light on areas that might not have been acknowledged before. The groups that have popped up of like, women in the industry and being in rooms with women who are putting other women forward, you know what I mean? There’s a whole quote about that that I’m flogging on. But, you know, not viewing other women as threats, you know? And just really advocating for one another. 

And even in some of these, like, producer groups that I’m in on WhatsApp and stuff like that, women are sharing other women’s work, like without them asking and just really saying, like, this is so admirable. People are having really frank conversations about, like, what they’re getting paid and helping other women, individuals get like, equal pay or or, you know, just like, people asking, like, hey I’ve had a client ask me to do this. Is this appropriate for this rate? Or whatever it may be, and just. And just being really transparent. So I think, to me, it’s the networks and community that is around me that I believe exists in the podcasting community. And I’m seeing it in the creator economy as well, too, in a more broad sense. 

So that is what’s giving me hope. I’m hoping that next year when they do these stats, the numbers are different on, across the board, not just for women, but diversity in general. So that’s what’s giving me hope, is the amazing people that I know in the industry and just seeing what they’re doing.

[CHIMES AND ENERGETIC RHYTHMIC MUSIC FADES IN AND BUILDS]

MARY: I can’t thank Emma enough for being on the show. She really reminds me a lot about this idea of representation, because to me, I remember being that little girl so long ago, watching TV while eating dinner and the evening news is on. And I remember every now and then I would see an Asian face hosting that show. Or maybe after dinner, we’re watching, you know, the rare TV movie with a female Asian lead, which actually was very, very rare at the time, and still sticking to that idea that, you know, I can be that lead. I can be that face or voice that people listen to. 

So podcasting really is no different. I want to be able to support more and more women and those who don’t traditionally see themselves or hear themselves on shows, you know, with podcasting, to try and make it more normal. It’s the everyday, right? It’s something that you can do. So hearing how Emma is also looking forward to the future and supporting women in this industry is really heartwarming to me because we still have such a huge path to get to. 

Everything you do as a podcaster does have impact. So, whether you have a large download number each week or something very small, or you’ve just launched your show with very minimal listeners, that one listener that is listening to your show, you know, don’t think about the overall numbers, but that one person that hit play on your episode that made a conscious decision to hit play, you know, it’s not as easy as automatic plays to the next video or something on YouTube, right? 

Podcasting really is a content decision to hit play. And when someone does that, and although you don’t always hear feedback, you never know, you could be changing someone’s idea or path, and not to be all sunshine and rainbows, but sometimes you really can change a person’s life, too, depending on what your message is so podcasting really does have that power. So thanks to you, the listener, you know, as a creator, as a podcast, for doing what you do because it changes the landscape. It shows representation on what is possible for your listener.

[MUSIC CONTINUES]

And this reflects in exactly what Emma says at the beginning of the episode. The producer is the first audience representing the audience within the room. So this role that you play in creating your show and being to able a producer for your show is important to connect to your listener that power that podcasting has to make an impression on who is listening to your show. But like I said, you don’t always hear that feedback because a podcast really is an asynchronous conversation with your listener. So when you do get that feedback, it’s always so amazing to hear. 

And so I want to know about your show and your feedback that you receive. You know, I’d love to hear how your podcast is supporting others. You know, did that one person who hit play on your episode leave you some feedback? What did they say that made an impact from listening to your show? You know, I actually heard from someone the other day who said that I was really encouraging and they wanted to start a podcast because of what I was saying to them, so they’re diving right in, they’re gonna give it a try. And that’s it, you know, that’s all it takes. Sharing your voice so that others can hear it and then they take action no matter what your message is. 

So share your story of impact with me. Head on over to my website to leave a voice note, VisibleVoicePodcast.com gonna click on that Send Voicemail button and share your literal voicemail with me. What impact have you made to a listener because you shared your voice on your podcast? 

On the next episode, I’m going to continue this conversation about women in podcasting that Emma and I started especially for video podcasts that we actually touched on too. I’m going to talk more about what disparities we still see for women in front of the camera and how this new podcast push for podcasts with video or a video first podcast can really be a hindrance as a barrier to entry and how podcasting can still work in any audio format. So this impact that you’re going to make with your stories and your voice doesn’t always have to have a video component. So we’re going to chat more about the audio versus video thing on the next episode. So I’ll chat with you then.

[MUSIC ENDS]

<< OUTRO – SHOW CLOSE // UPBEAT DRUMS THEME MUSIC IN- GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS >>

MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster’s guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

<< WOMAN SINGS: Let’s go >>

<< MUSIC ENDS >>