Facts and Myths About Copyright Law for Podcasts – Episode 122

[DRIVING GUITAR THEME MUSIC IN // GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS]

MARY: I bet that when you started your podcast, you didn’t think, [SARCASM] oh, wow, I can’t wait to deal with copyright law! Yay! [LAUGHTER] That was said by no podcaster in the world. Unless maybe you have a copyright law podcast? Maybe, except for that one. However, in our creative world of podcasting, using music and also now with AI to generate things on our show, there’s a big part of copyright that you need to take a look at. 

Do you have the rights to use the music that you have chosen on your show? I still talk to people to this day, and it happened to me a couple weeks ago that they think they can just use whatever they find on YouTube. I’m going to quickly say that’s a no, no, don’t do that one. So what are the parameters and what does copyright mean in the age of AI? Quick answer. Monkeys. Actual literal monkeys and copyright law, they go hand in hand. More to come on that later in the episode. 

So to find out more about some of the legal aspects every podcaster needs to know about, we’re chatting with Mike Anderson. Mike is a lawyer for creatives, innovators and do-gooders who provides innovative legal services to sports and entertainment companies, musicians, podcasters, creators, startups, and nonprofits, and charities. You definitely have some fun industries in there too, so this is going to be a fun conversation. 

Mike is also the co-host of the award winning Lawyer Life podcast. And I think, as every good lawyer would probably say, I’m just gonna put this little disclaimer off the top. It’s my version of a lawyer disclaimer. Get your own lawyer. This episode is not direct advice for you. You need to review anything that you are working on. If you’re like, should I, should I? Get a lawyer. And make sure that all, uh, your I’s are dotted and your t’s are crossed and things like that. So especially how, uh, things might be different in your region, which Mike talks about in this episode. So time to get into the nuts and bolts of all things lawyer like for podcasting and find out what does copyright law have to do with monkeys? 

This is episode 122 with Mike Anderson on the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

<< WOMAN SINGS: So so so so let’s go >> 

Mike, thank you so much for joining me. 

[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

Today we are going to have some fun talking about lawyer-y things, which I’m sure you get the stereotype of, like, this can be fun, right?

MIKE: [LIGHT CHUCKLE] Yeah, people don’t often pair fun and lawyerly things together, but I like to try to make that happen as much as possible. So yes, let’s embrace it and let’s go for it today. Thanks for having me, Mary.

MARY: Awesome. I was listening a bit to your podcast, the Lawyer Life. And, you know, I’m not a lawyer, so I’m just like, skim, skim, skim, skim. 

MIKE: Mhm.

MARY: But this one episode really got me, and it was just this topic around gripes,… 

MIKE: Yes. 

MARY: …and I want to know, podcasting-wise, what is your biggest gripe that you see podcasters do? And then you’re like, my lawyer brain is like, no, stop doing that.

MIKE: Oh, good question. So in my practice, I guess you’re asking, like, on the legal side, what’s a…

MARY: Yeah,

MIKE: …something that. Yeah, that I see podcasters do that can bite them later on. I’d say it’s similar, like, so I also advise on the music side. So bands, record labels, and so on. And it’s funny how there’s overlap between the two worlds. And whether it’s a podcaster or a band or a group of podcasters, a really important thing is to set the terms of your relationship at the beginning of the relationship. 

So we see sometimes, in the podcasting space where, you know, we’re best friends and we’re gonna just gonna start this up, do it for fun… 

MARY: Mhmm. 

MIKE: …but it takes off and it goes well and then it doesn’t go well, for whatever reason, the relationship has stress, people have different goals or focuses. Can somebody continue it? Who owns it? How would, if we do end this and it continues, how does that work economically? You know, there’s so ultimately just like a band, you know, we start out just playing, you know, music for fun, and it starts to evolve. We want to make sure that everybody’s eyes open on what it means on the business side. Because ultimately these things can turn into, as much as they are for fun and to explore culture or other ideas, you know, it can turn into a business operation, and it needs to be treated as such.

MARY: What about, like, you know, I’ve seen in movies, the, write something on a napkin because their buddies are out for a beer, and then they’re like, this is what we’re gonna do. Does it actually count?

MIKE: Yeah. A contract can be verbal. It can be on a napkin. The important thing is a meeting of the minds. So as long as both sides very clearly understood the terms and said, yes, we’re doing it, yes, we’re in. This is a thing that’s a contract. The reason why we like contracts in writing is for evidence of what that agreement was when it was struck. So, when we have a verbal agreement or an agreement on a napkin which might not be super clear or might disappear at a point in time. It’s harder, you know, when five years later, when we need to point to, no, we said we’re splitting it 50/50. One side might say, that’s not what I remember. I remember 30/70. And it’s very difficult at that point if there’s nothing in writing to determine what the actual deal term was. So, yes, a contract can be formed on a napkin in a discussion, but the problem is when the rubber hits the road, how do you prove it?

MARY: Yeah.

MIKE: Dun-dun-dunnn!

MARY: How do you prove it? That’s why the paper evidence exists. Okay, I love this. When I first asked you this question, you. You paused a little bit, and I was wondering, oh, do you have a gripe personally when you listen to podcasts?

MIKE: Oh, yeah. You know what? I don’t know what your relationship is with podcasts. Mine continues to, like, evolve, and I think has more to do with me. Like, sometimes I’m really into, you know, the talk show type format. Sometimes I’m really into, like, you know, the full production, you know, type bit with a, you know, a good storyline. And I go back and forth. So I think it’s mostly just about where I’m at and where. Where I’m leading at some point, which is kind of like, I don’t know how we watch TV or film. 

MARY: Totally. 

MIKE: Like, sometimes you want a comedy, sometimes you want a drama.

MARY: Yep.

MIKE: You know, and yeah, so I just kind of come in and out. So I know everybody, you know, maybe I’m like everybody else. Certain mornings I’m looking at my feed, I’m like, oh, I can’t do that right now. 

MARY: Yes. Yes. 

MIKE: You know, I need this. That would be. That would be the first thing that comes to mind.

MARY: Yeah, me too. I. Because I also work in the industry and I help other creators create their podcast and edit and strategize and stuff like that. Like, I’m in podcasting a lot, so that when I am in my own downtime, I’m like, okay, do I want to learn more about the industry? Do I want to learn more about running a business? Do I want to learn? And I’m like, no, no learning, brain is full. Let’s entertain. Let’s do a narrative style. Well, there’s a story to take me along somewhere. Or some days it’s just like, I can’t podcast anymore. But I love audio, so I, like, switched to audiobooks for a season there.

MIKE: Yeah, Before I went to law school, I worked in television. And I started as an intern and I wound up being a segment producer and I did some on air work. This is at MTV Canada. Which I’m not even sure if it really exists anymore. 

MARY: No. 

MIKE: But in its heyday, I was in the office and like, Tom Cruise is coming through and Franz Ferdinand is playing on our show. 

MARY: Oooh.

MIKE: And it was a really great moment. And I was, you know, with Dan Levy, who obviously has done great work since then. He was a desk beside me and, and many others that it was just a wonderful creative space. But, you know, when you’re working in production, it’s hard to look at similar productions just for enjoyment. You’re analyzing and you’re trying to learn and you’re trying to consider, how did they do that or why did they do that or why that decision. And I think it’s like, that’s why comedians, for example, love watching reality TV in a lot of instances. Instances. Because it’s like, oh, this is so uncalculated and so random and these, you know, that like, so sometimes we want to get pulled into the, the thing that we don’t do all the time.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. And that’s the typical podcast listener as well, right? Like, and that’s how we want to make sure that we create shows that keep people engaged and stay on your show and not even if they have the, the, the, the lack of mental capacity due to their own personal life, they’ll come back eventually because, you know, they love the host or they love what you were talking about. So…

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: Yeah.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: You were talking about music and all of this stuff before. Let’s get into, like, copyright laws… 

MIKE: Mhmm. 

MARY: …is what I immediately thought of because people sadly still don’t realize you can’t just rip something off of YouTube to put onto your podcast. So big overall picture. What are the copyright laws that podcasters need to be following at this point?

MIKE: The easiest example, as you reference off the top, is music. The way that I always explain it is if you think it has value in your podcast, definitely the rights holder thinks it has value as well, and that’s why they charge for licenses, right?

MARY: [LIGHT CHUCKLE] Yeah. 

MIKE: So on the music side, one thing to know that I don’t think is just like really well known out there in the general public is like, for any song, there’s two copyrights in each song, basically. So the example I like to give, and I know that Dolly Parton passed this year and miss her, she’s, what an incredible figure. But so so the example I give often here is the Dolly Parton song, I Will Always Love you, right? 

So Dolly Parton wrote that song. She’s the songwriter. She has a copyright in what’s called the composition. So that’s the lyrics, the melody and so on the actual written song. And then there’s a separate right for when that composition is recorded. So in, in the context of Whitney Houston and the Bodyguard, that famous recording of I Will Always Love You, that’s different. And that’s typically owned by a record label or nowadays sometimes artists are trying to keep ownership of their recordings. But basically anytime we use a song, we have to get permission from what I call the Dolly and the Whitney…

MARY: Ahh yes.

MIKE: …or those who they’ve given their rights to. So, always, like always, if you’re going to be using especially popular music, and by that I mean, you know, the stuff you hear on the radio and songs that we’d recognize you need to go to the representatives of Dolly and the representatives of Whitney and get what would be a synchronization rate in the context of a podcast. So basically you pay money to include the song on your podcast and you get a license that talks about how long you can do that for, what jurisdictions you can do that within. Can it be edited? Can it be not? And so on.

MARY: Is it harder than to get one for a podcast? Because, as you were saying, like, jurisdiction, well, worldwide. 

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: And then how long? Well, podcasts can last forever. So, like.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: Is that more complicated?

MIKE: It’s really hard. Yeah. So podcasts are this weird. It’s it. Because obviously, I know it’s not new, but relative to… 

MARY: Relative, yeah.

MIKE: …relative music law, it’s new. So, basically, like, there are set regimes in the world for music use that work really efficiently. So for example, if you walk into a mall or a bar or an arena and you hear music playing there, there’s a regime that basically allows the owner of that restaurant or that mall or that arena to pay one collective, we called them a license for all the music they could ever want to play, right? So that’s pretty cool. That’s a great system. And that allows for music use in these situations. And so that’s on one end of the spectrum. 

The other end of the spectrum is like TV and film, where obviously productions are going to record labels and publishers who represent songwriters and getting permission to like, hey, I want to use this Taylor Swift song in my movie. Obviously that’s going to come at a price. And Taylor Swift and her folks are going to decide whether that’s something they want. And that’s kind of on the other end of the spectrum that individual licensing. 

Podcasts, you know, rationally would kind of sit between those two and you’d think there’d be like a right sized licensing, easy licensing solution for podcasts. There’s not really. There’s, you know, that’s why so many podcasts use production music or stock music as we call it. So that’s not popular music. That’s your, you know, you pay a subscription, you get access to stuff that’s increasingly good, especially compared to what it was like five or ten years ago.

MARY: Yeah, yeah.

MIKE: But it’s not Taylor Swift. 

MARY: Right. 

MIKE: It’s not Drake. That’s where we’re falling. And so many folks use music there where you can get worldwide license grants for as long as the productions um, exist. You know, if the, basically if the music was included in the episode when you were had your license, it can live on past. Even if your license expires at a certain point they decide to go to a different provider or you know, stop production entirely still that can live on the Internet in many instances. 

But the popular music is still hard and that requires a direct license, which is more similar to the TV and film situation. It costs a lot more, it takes a lot more time and frankly, like you know, if you’re a smaller podcast, even if you have the money to clear it, getting the attention of the rights holders can be difficult. So you know, at this point there, there are some efforts by major right holders to make available basically older songs on a kind of catalog license basis similar to production music or stock music. But that’s still a developing area and podcasters are just thirsty to be able to include recognizable music in a lot of instances. 

The last thing I’ll say on it is because podcasts are non-institutional in many instances. So it’s individual, independent producers and they can be political, they can use offside language. You know, they’re kind of, it’s this not necessarily as regulated of an industry compared to radio or compared, compared to film and television in some instances. So there’s hesitancy from rights holders to say, yeah, you can use this popular song in your podcast and all of a sudden an offensive topic is being discussed and the song is playing after and then it’s kind of a PR nightmare. So another reason why the rights holders want to really control where their music goes because it’s kind of, you know, there’s a higher risk of being associated with podcast X that they don’t know anything about.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. I also want to clear up once and for all, you know, still, like on Reddit posts and all these things, sometimes people will say, oh, well, if you just use 30 seconds or less of the music, you’re fine. Or you’re using it for like review purposes, you’re fine. Are people fine?

MIKE: So it depends. The review purposes is interesting. And I’ll park that for a second. 

MARY: Okay. 

MIKE: The whole, like you can use, I’ve heard 12 seconds, yeah, right. You know, I’ve heard that for a long time. Even when I was in the TV world and was soon learned that wasn’t the case. When I was a junior segment producer working at MTV, I was like, we can use, you know, a portion of this music video or song. Why not? We, you know, we do it another. Anyway, whatever. So no, the, the answer is, as a blanket rule that I would not rely on that. Ultimately it comes down to the context of the use the piece of the song or whatever the work is. You know, what, what piece did you use? So, I’m trying to think of like, I don’t know why this is on my mind, but you know that Little John song with Usher called, Yeah, this is my example. 

MARY: Yes, go. 

MIKE: It has a really like, it has a really famous hook, right? It’s just basically like the chorus is really recognizable, right? If you grab that chorus and put it in your podcast off the top as your theme song, it doesn’t matter that it’s 12 seconds or 30 seconds, like you’re playing the most substantive part of and well known part of that song. And I would say that there’s certainly risk there. So as a blanket. No. And then, and then the question about criticism or review, in different jurisdictions there are allowances like defenses to copyright infringement basically on those points, parody, criticism, review, there are conditions surrounding that. 

And so that’s when a lawyer can be helpful to make sure that you understand the nature of the use, how long you use it for, you know, all these certain things to basically line yourself up for a really solid defense. If somebody comes forward and saying you’re infringing because you use their song, and you can say there was no alternative to using it because we wanted to talk about that specific song, we used as little as possible. We then analyzed why we liked it or didn’t as a form of criticism and so on. And same with parody which is…

MARY: Yeah, that’s another one.

MIKE: …slightly newer in Canada, but yeah, those, those are available, but they, but again, they, it’s not a silver bullet. It can come with, with risk. And even if you’re well situated that, you know, you can still have to deal with that awful letter coming across saying, you know, cease and desist… 

MARY: Ugh yeah. 

MIKE: …and you owe us X amount of money. And even that can be a headache. So depending on where you’re at and how much risk tolerance you have, you might be able to go down those paths. But that’s definitely, when I say a lawyer would be useful in those situations.

MARY: Mmm yes. While you were talking about that, you, you’ve mentioned again, different jurisdictions and I’m curious about like, the Canadian lens of that, because you and I are both in Canada, but the podcasting space in my eyes is still very, very US-centric. Do you know of any laws that are specific to Canada in podcasting or the creative world that, you know, most people might not know about, that we need to know about?

MIKE: So it’s interesting as it relates to copyright because of basically international agreements and treaties and so on. You know, the major Western countries have all moved toward a fairly consistent copyright model. Previously our copyright term was different from the US and that has changed, so that we’re aligned there. So largely, I would say, you know, while I can’t give advice on U.S. law or other laws. 

MARY: Right, yes, of course. 

MIKE: But there’s consistency in the copyright world and, and consistency more generally with the way the industry norms are, by contract or otherwise. So, you know, I’ve worked on many podcast related deals, border working with US distributors, and so on. So that’s, you know, we’re talking the same language. And ultimately, not to get into the tea, but I find when I negotiate against US lawyers, the biggest difference is cultural and not on substantive law. 

MARY: Oh dear. 

MIKE: And so we have different approaches. Certainly I would say that the stereotypes about Canadians prove true. I think in those contexts, I think that we drive more toward mutually beneficial, reasonable deals. And I find when I work with US lawyers, it’s a lot more dramatic, a lot more yelling, a lot more, I don’t know, a bit more of a show and less about just get the deal done in the most effective way possible. But we do still love our individual American friends, even though our countries might not be as close right now as they have been historically.

MARY: Yeah. Exactly. Alright, I’m gonna still stick with this copyright sort of lane, because I was wondering about AI use now. You know, AI is big in the world right now. You can use it in your podcast. So much for, like, you know, episode graphics or cutting video, finding those snippets, writing show notes, creating your titles, things like that. But I’ve also read, like, how AI doesn’t own copyright, so, like, can you use AI generated things? So, like, this whole rabbit hole of AI and podcasting. Give me the Cole’s notes. What’s, what’s your take on it?

MIKE: So, first of all, it’s an evolving area of law, so that’s an interesting thing for lawyers, I think, and for the public alike. Yes. So as it relates to copyright, largely, the question is, when something is developed by artificial intelligence, is it entitled to copyright protection? And a funny pre AI case on the matter involved a question about a monkey who got hold of a camera. [LAUGHTER]

MARY: Okay.

MIKE: And took a bunch of pictures on the camera. And there was a question as to whether those…

MARY: Oh does the monkey own the photos, got it.

MIKE: …Yes. Yeah. Can those photos be protected by copyright if a monkey took them? And the answer is no. [LAUGHTER] So it has to be human created. That’s kind of where the rubber hits the road here. Largely where things are netting out is if your prompts are super simple and really you’re not engaging creatively in a substantive way with the tools. So if I just write into Suno, make me a Drake song about being a dad with two kids. I don’t know, [LAUGHTER] I don’t know, be a weird song. And Suno makes this song that’s, you know, on the side, if there’s a spectrum, I would say that that’s on the end of, like, probably not going to be protected by copyright. And we’ll talk about the implications of that in a second. 

But there, if the AI is doing all the work, if it’s making the melody, if it’s making the lyrics, if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, unlikely to be protected by copyright. Also, just as a side note, if I’m asking it to sound like a current artist, then I’m putting myself in hot water there too. 

MARY: Ooo yeah. 

MIKE: So that would be a really bad thing to do… 

MARY: Oh yeah. 

MIKE: …if I ever plan to use that music at all. On the opposite end of the spectrum, let’s say I use an AI tool where I have a melody that I’ve already written and I’m asking it to put that melody into, like a synth sound. And I am saying I want a guitar solo to sound like this, and I’m adding that in and I’m singing it myself, but I’m just getting like an auto tune AI type thing to Improve the way I’m singing and really like I’m driving it. But AI is kind of a tool that’s allowing me to improve my own work. That’d be far more likely to be entitled to copyright protection. 

And so what does that mean, right? Copyright protection. So in the Drake scenario, that song that I quote, unquote made, if it’s not entitled to protection, that means anybody could use it. It’s harder to monetize. Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, other type platforms would not attach a monetization, right? If there’s no copyright as well. And I couldn’t stop other people from using my Drake with two kids and the suburbs song. And on the other side, the song that I really drove the creation of and used AI as a tool to just kind of help me. If I have copyright protection there, I can monetize, I can stop other people from doing these things. I have, you know, decades of protection on my work. So, that would be kind of the spectrum that we’re looking at. 

So ultimately the takeaway, even though the law is evolving, is like, use it as a tool for your own genuine creativity. Have very, very rich in depth, specific detailed prompts. Keep a record of how detailed those prompts were.

MARY: Oh yeah. 

MIKE: So if you’re ever challenged, then you can say, here’s our whole interaction, here’s how involved I was. These are my creative thoughts and expressions, you know, all that backup could be quite useful, uh, if ever you were challenged on the ownership side. But ultimately that all comes down to how important it is for you to have protected rights. And if you are just mocking about on a podcast making silly stuff and you want your Drake with two kids in the suburbs songs, aside from, as I said, aside from asking for a Drake impersonation, which would be bad. 

So let’s just say you want a song, hey, make me a hip hop song about being a dad in the suburbs. You might just want to play that on your podcast and you don’t care if people rip it off and use it and you might even embrace that. So, yeah, it’s about kind of considering your context and what your goals are and understanding that there’s risk that you might make if thing that has no protection at all.

MARY: Yeah, that’s a good point. And back to your, like, evidence, download what you, you had prompted is a really good idea that I don’t think people are going to. Okay, not gonna not take up too much more of your time as a lawyer. I’m sure you are busy, but you said you have your own show too, The Lawyer Life podcast.

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: Why did you decide to start that and where is it heading?

MIKE: Yeah, thanks. We started in, I think it’s 2018. And we’ve had hiatuses at times, but at the, at that time, which, you know, eight years ago, it was very unusual for lawyers to have a podcast especially one with the tone that we take, which is like, not at all stuffy, lawyer, blah, blah, blah. It’s like we just focus on the political, personal, and professional lives of lawyers and we take that on in a conversational tone. My co-host and I, Darlene Tonelli, we worked together. It was basically just a way for us to explore ideas that we were interested in advance ideas that we think are important for our profession and also to express who we are as a law firm, what our values are, and hopefully guide the profession toward those values. 

And we think in many cases that came to pass, I mean, for reasons related or unrelated to us, you know, so we’re happy to lead new ideas that in our view are helpful to people. And we’ve had different sort of focuses as the years have gone on. So we’ve done seasons focused for law students to like, better prepare themselves to do well in law school. 

We’ve done seasons on starting a business. And so during that season I started a side business called Lagom Law, which actually helps creative entrepreneurs get quick and affordable access to legal help. We’ve had a bunch of great guests from, you know, Bob Rae, who’s represented us at the UN most recently to authors, journalists, and so on. So we’ve, you know, we’ve. We’ve kind of gone wherever our motivations have taken us and we’re just actually talking. We’re about to start a new season where there’s a book that came out recently that we really enjoy that’s carved up, uh, chapter by chapter with some really interesting thoughts. So we’re going to be guiding our season by basically taking a look at that, at that book and applying it to our lives and practices. 

So ultimately we want to bring warmth and humour, real talk, but also drive ourselves, the profession and the general listenership, toward kind of just like, trying to be better, you know, trying to improve and, and that’s something I think that we just love talking about.

MARY: Yeah, and I love how this idea too, that, you know, you go on hiatuses, you’ve got seasons, and you focus on certain things because as anyone could probably imagine being a lawyer is really busy. And so the whole idea of this Lawyer Life podcast is that, you know, you kind of have to create the podcast based on your capacity…

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: …do you tend to have, like, a schedule of these hiatuses or how does that work out?

MIKE: It’s funny. Like, we’ve had, we’ve had seasons about wellness and high performance and how those two things interact. And so on that point, like, we do try to mind when we’re overdoing it, you know? 

MARY: Yeah. 

MIKE: Where it’s like, okay, yeah, we don’t want to burn ourselves out. I think also there’s just been a natural rhythm to things where we finish a season or a run, and we just feel like, yeah, we’ve said what we want to say right now, and until we have something new to say, we’re not going to record.

MARY:  I love it. 

MIKE: So I. It’s. It’s. I know that’s not as easy for people. And, like, especially if content creation is bringing an income, you need to kind of keep feeding the beast.

MARY: Yeah.

MIKE: We have the luxury of, like, you know, we have our jobs, and we do this kind of on the side. And so we have the luxury of waiting until we really are motivated by an idea or a concept or a topic and then diving into it. Because even though we started out in the podcast space talking about things that exist really massively in podcasts and social media now, like high performance and optimization, we don’t want to talk about that anymore. 

MARY: Yeah exactly. 

MIKE: We’re done. And we kind of don’t want to be part of what the way it’s evolved into this kind of other thing. So, you know, we’re. We try to be aware, definitely, of what our motivations are, what we think brings value, and what drives an idea forward instead of just perpetuating something that already exists.

MARY: Yeah. Awesome. Mike, thank you so much for coming on the show. I’m actually…

MIKE: Thank you for having me.

MARY: …you know, excited about actually maybe picking up on what is this book and see how you formulate the episodes about your upcoming new series.

MIKE: Yeah, so we plan to get recording in the next couple weeks. Yeah, it’s called the Lawyer Life Podcast. It’s on all available platforms. So pop into the back catalogue if you want to get a sense of us. And then look out for the new season.

MARY: The gripes episode. I love that one.

MIKE: Yeah, we end every episode with goods and gripes. And so. And we dedicated an entire episode to griping about. I think it was contract. 

MARY: Yes. Yeah. 

MIKE: Which I promise our stuff isn’t as boring as it sounds.

MARY: No, because your stories were so relatable. As someone who’s not in this field whatsoever, I was like,…

MIKE: Yeah.

MARY: …oh those signing fields, I hate those too. They’re so confusing. Okay, I get it.

MIKE: Yeah. Yeah. What are we doing here, guys… 

MARY: Yeah. 

MIKE: …you know?. [LAUGHTER]

[CHIMES AND ENERGETIC RHYTHMIC MUSIC IN]

MARY: I love, love, love the way they work, work with their podcast about the seasons, the hiatus. Because so much of what I talk about on this very show is about your capacity to create your podcast. They’ve leaned heavily into that. And there’s going to be seasons just like you, where you want to talk about certain topics or you have a busy life. And I love how the Lawyer Life podcast represents those shared values of building your podcast based on your capacity. Because, as Mike also alludes to, his podcast isn’t about making money. It’s a place to share values and connect with others. And so a podcast like that doesn’t have to be driven by the whims of algorithms and the need to fuel that content machine. I love how other podcasters are making this sort of a format work for them. 

So thanks again to Mike for coming on the show. And like I said at the beginning of the episode, we didn’t become podcasters to think that one day we were going to enjoy the legal side of podcasting. Unless, of course, you are a lawyer and you have a podcast about lawyer-y things. [LAUGHTER] But there are things to consider for every podcaster. 

So Mike quickly mentioned to LagomLaw.co, that’s his website, which he created customized templates as legal help for creatives. I thought that was a really, really smart move, because I wish I had that when I started my business and started looking into the legalities of podcasts and things like that. And eventually I did get a lawyer in the end, but it would have been nice to have some templates to start with. But anyway, he quickly mentioned it on the episode, but I thought it would be worth another mention for you right here. Check it out, link is in our show notes. It’ll be a great place for you to start to get some templates and start this. A little bit of a journey into the legal side of podcasting. So if you have a podcast, definitely something for you to look into. 

On the next episode. In this age where video and podcasting is merging big time, I’m going to update an old episode of mine, episode number 58, talking about What You Wear Matters In Podcasting. That episode was about how the things you wear can actually affect the sound the audio. So go back to that and listen to it loud shirts are a thing, but I know in this age what you wear matters in video, obviously it’s a visual medium. However, I’m not just going to talk about your sense of style, which plays into it. And I’m not saying don’t be you. Definitely be you.

However, there are certain patterns that affects cameras flickering. There’s also lighting and colouring and so much more that I’ve seen in the video world that I just thought this would be a great little update in this day and age that we’re in with podcasting and video and stuff. So this can be helpful if you’re not doing a video podcast as well. Other video aspects of your work could include like Zoom calls, short form video creation, or even the videos you’re creating to promote your episodes. So this one will be a good listen, little tips and tricks all next time on the podcast. So we’ll talk to you then.

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster’s guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

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