What does it mean to know yourself and then to be it? This question pretty much sums up what your personal brand can mean. This week’s special guest, DP Knudten, joins me as we decipher what a personal brand can mean for you and your podcast. 

We’ll also share the importance of podcasting for building your self-confidence and growth and how podcasting is more than just a marketing platform. So listen in about his tips for your next iteration of your personal brand.

You’ll also learn:

  • The difference between a conversation vs an interview 
  • Tips and tricks on how to write for audio
  • The power of podcast guesting

Links worth exploring from the episode:

Engage with DP:

Connect with Mary!

Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.

Our Conversation:

Mary

What does it mean to know yourself and then to be it? This question pretty much sums up what your personal brand can mean. Sometimes podcasters actually don’t say a lot. I know, for this medium it’s all about talking, audio only usually, but it still happens. And it happens when podcasters hold back because they’re afraid of sharing too much about themselves or maybe if you have an interview style show, you have a guest that talks too much and you don’t want to interrupt and step on their toes. So when do you choose to speak up? As like the answer to anything I do, it depends. Depending on who you are, the type of show you have and your brand, your answer will lie in those parameters. Know who you are. So you can be it. That two-sentence call-to-action and a personal credo succinctly sums up what the NonFiction brand, philosophy and DP Knudten, the person, are all about.

In this episode, DP and I decipher what a personal brand can mean for you and your podcast. You’ll also find valuable insights about how to write for audio, which sneak peak is going to be very, very different from when you’re writing a blog post or social media. We’ll give you some tips. We’ll also share the importance of podcasting for building your self-confidence and growth and how podcasting is more than just a marketing platform. So listen in about his tips for your next iteration of your personal brand and how he presents himself as well on my show. Again, it’s all part of his branding. This is the seed I’m planting for you. So this way you are listening in for how he is presenting himself through his personal brand. He definitely, as he puts it, “knows who he is, so he can be it.” Enjoy the show.

Mary 

Welcome DP to the show. I cannot wait to get your insights all about personal branding. We’re going to talk copywriting for a little while here. Welcome. Hello.

DP

Well, thank you so much, Mary, for having me on your podcast. I am delighted to be talking with you.

Mary

You know, I was quickly look at your website before we got on here, and I love your quick two-sentence call-to-action. “Know who you are. So you can be it.”

I come from a radio background and there’s a lot of marketing and branding that goes along with the work I used to do in radio. And so I really really get that. I understand it so much. But for the, you know, maybe the new podcaster, new people getting into the space, what does that really mean?

DP

Well, you know, it’s funny you say that because I’m personally I’m delighted as a copywriter that that caught your attention enough to bring it up, especially very first thing on your podcast. Because to me, that was a discovery that, you know, all the most simple things are the hardest things to discover. Well, for me, this whole thing, which was, oh, you have to know who you are before you can be it. And then, of course, I do the copywriter thing where I try to make it really pithy and turn it into a bumper sticker. Well, in this case, know who you are, period. So you can be it, period. That formulation was absolutely something that I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to do because I wanted people to understand the the kind of Yoda brilliance of it. And that’s not me saying I’m brilliant for developing it. It’s more about what it means. So what does it mean to know yourself and what does it mean to be it? Well, the first thing is we tell a lot of stories about ourselves. We all have personal running narratives. Some of those narratives are the ones we show on Instagram where we have nothing but gorgeous food on wonderful vacations with incredible looking people. That’s a narrative. That is a story. That is not necessarily completely who you are. Other people will be, let’s call them TMI addicted. Too much information, where they share too much of who they think they are or share too much of their lives so that people go either, Oh, I love watching you because you’re a train wreck, or I really don’t want to pay anymore attention to you because frankly, you’re bringing me down. So the question is, how can you know who you are and be who you are in a way that best serves you? So, this is as much about bringing up the right questions and then delving into discovering those answers for yourself. If I were to say, know who you are and be it for myself, that determines things like what social channels do I engage with the most personally? Well, for me, I know enough about myself to know that I’m much more of a performer and much more of a behind-the-mic or in front of the camera-type person. I have absolute comfort doing those things. So consequently, the channels that I choose to engage with are, not surprisingly, those oriented towards performance, podcasts, live streams, et cetera. Other people don’t want to go near a mic and never want to be in front of a camera, to which I say, Yay! You know that about yourself. And you know it deeply enough to understand that it doesn’t suit you and who you are or the style which you’ve chosen to engage with people, especially on social media.

Mary 

But then, you know, you were talking about TMI, all that sort of stuff. Well, how much is too much? Because I find a lot of podcasters, they hold back because they think, you know, if they have a guest on the show, I need to not talk over them. I should let them say their thing. And so sometimes they end up not saying a lot. So how much do you share of yourself, especially as a podcaster, because you host your own show as well?

DP

Well, again, that depends on who you are. If you know truly who you are and why you’re doing your podcast. So you framed it up that way by saying, if you’re a podcaster, how much should you be talking versus how much they should be talking? And the answer is, it all depends on who you are and the format of your show and also what you want to get out of it. So there’s a difference between an interview and a conversation. And I don’t see a lot of people truly understanding that. Like, if you watch a nightly news show wherever you happen to be, primarily, it’s going to be an interviewer asking a question of an expert and then that expert having two, three to five times more time to answer the question than the actual time it took to ask the question. That’s an interview. 

A conversation, especially with someone that may be interested in the same things you are, can be a back and forth thing where it’s not unusual. When I look at my podcast with my guests, I pull up the waveform and I look at it because I am a little concerned that I talk too damn much. I will pull up the waveform and literally look to see if, visually, I talked. They talked, I talk, they talked. And if it’s roughly 50-50, I feel OK. I have had some episodes with some guests that just weren’t, I don’t know, “fully present” is a word or a phrase I would use and it was 70% me and 30% them. I had real problems even editing that to make it a podcast episode because as you can tell, I don’t mind talking, but that’s not what my show is meant to be. It’s not me talking with a guest to listen, it’s me to talk and engage the guest and follow them where they lead. Again, I’m not going to sit there and just wait to ask my list of questions. If they say something, I take issue with it’s not unusual for me, because I know who I am and I am actively being it, it’s not unusual for me to take issue with something they might say in a very human kind, giving open way. But I’ll say something like, Well, that’s interesting. I don’t necessarily agree, but you’re beginning to convince me. So for someone who’s like me, who’s kind of thinking that you’re full of it, what would you say to convince me even further that your position is right about any given subject? Why would I say something like that to a guest? And the answer is pretty damn simple. I know who I am, and I am being it.

Mary 

I love that, especially when you talked about pulling the waveform in. That is such a great trick that I use myself. You have that visual element of knowing, OK, well, how much am I talking? Am I doing the guest justice by, like, letting them speak their mind for, you know, enough time. So. I love that. Thank you for sharing that tip.

DP

Well, yeah, it’s actually a killer tip, especially for people who are doing podcasting for the first time or maybe aren’t super into it or haven’t been involved with a lot of podcast guesting or anything like that. If you can see that you’re talking too much, you may not hear it, but you can see it. And boy, that’s that’s a great way to make you at least start thinking about, hmm, maybe I should breathe a little bit and let them talk for a while.

So you asked me the question about my podcast and say I have guests on, I have experts on. I have people who are not expert but are interested in learning more about personal branding. And so some of my episodes are literally people who don’t know how to do it, picking my brain. Why? Because they’re at the beginning of their personal brand development journey, if you will. Great. I do my podcast to demonstrate, say it with me, who I am, because I know who I am and I want to be it by demonstrating exactly who I am on my podcast. Do you see? It’s like this cycle. It’s all related. You know, it’s not a snake eating its tail. It’s much more of a, I know why I’m doing this podcast. And consequently, a big part of that is to demonstrate my brain, my wit, if I have any, my sensibility, my taste, my ability to curate interesting guests, my ability to interview them, to make them look great. Because, by the way, one of the best reasons to do a podcast is by making a guest sound great. You look good. And isn’t that why we’re doing this?

Mary

Yeah, that’s one of the great ways to stand out as well with your brand. Having that really great audio quality, to make sure that your guest sounds as amazing as they can be. And a lot of times I think people just don’t realise what they’re doing is also part of their brand.

DP

Oh my God, you will hear me over and over and over say who you are, what you do, and how you do it, who you are, what you do and how you do it. Because what you do and how you do it defines who you are. Consequently, social media, if you constantly show me that you are on sailboats and that you’re at this regatta and that you’re hoisting this tournament cup at some big regatta that’s well known as for open ocean sailing and then I see photos of you mid transit to Hawaii by the end of me following you on Instagram, I’m going to go, Wow, that Mary Chan. She’s an open water sailor. Wow. That’s really cool. And she has stuff to say about empowerment, about fear-conquering that would be incredibly valuable to our audience, especially of women. Like let’s say you showed me all those photos on Instagram of you doing that sailing solo to Hawaii. Would that be something that demonstrated who you are, what you do, and how you do it? It doesn’t say. Mary Chan, audio producer. It says Mary Chan, fearless woman who’s got stuff to say about conquering fear and overcoming things and inspiring people to do more better. Does that mean you can’t talk about it on a podcast about podcasts? No, you can talk about that, absolutely. But you’ll probably talk about it in terms that related to people who have fear of getting in front of a microphone and actually sharing of themselves. And you would have a ton of examples of how you could do that in a way that actually demonstrates. Say it with me, who you are, what you do, and how you do it, because you got to know who you are so you can be it.

Mary

Also, though, sometimes on a podcast, although it is, you know, a lot of talking, there can be some scriptwriting involved. You know, we got to put together maybe an intro, we’ll have our bullet points. But in audio, which is very different from writing an article, a blog post, social media captions event is very, very different. It’s a different platform. So what are the differences that you see as a copywriter in writing for social media, say, and blogs versus the medium of audio in podcasting?

DP 

The biggest thing is the human mouth and the capacity of a human set of lungs. These things cannot be changed easily. On paper, you can write a 150-word paragraph with absolutely no punctuation whatsoever. The human voice has to breathe. Every several words, has I think you can hear me, do… You can hear the pauses right? So you can’t put in a 25-word sentence, with the exception of highly trained voiceover talent, and have them come off with anything other than a massive coronary on air because they can’t breathe anymore. So it’s not like you have to say, OK, I can only write forward phrases or sentences. I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is whenever you write anything, immediately read it aloud yourself.

Mary

Read it out loud. I’ve worked with some copywriters where they would just say, OK, I’m going to read now and here is so-and-so. I’m going to talk about this… versus I am going to read this out loud now and make sure that it is how a person might read versus mumbling through.

DP

Amen. I’ll I cannot tell you because here’s the thing. Any time that you’re reading aloud and you stumble and you think, Oh, it’s because of a speech impediment or my tongue hit my teeth weird or something. No, no, no. It’s because you didn’t write it for the human mouth. You wrote it to be read by the eyes. You did not write it to be said by the mouth, read by the eyes, said by the mouth. There’s a huge difference. And and this is a big one. If you’re writing for someone else, write it the way you would say it and then make sure that they sit down with you, if you have to, read it aloud so I can hear the way you would say it. And then, oh, you can’t say that word or all of us have phoneme combinations that we don’t do well. You know, like, maybe it’s a hard R. I’m from the Midwest, so we hit our Rs almost like Captain Jack Sparrow on the Black Pearl.. for crying out loud. So you got to be a little conscious about things like that, but you can only tell that it doesn’t work by reading it aloud. 

I was talking with a friend of mine who is writing a book, and he’s at the very, very final stage. And I said, Well, have you done an audio book version of it yet? And he said, No, but I will sometime. I said, You know, you might want to do the audio book first before you publish because I guarantee you, you will be rewriting some of the sections of your book because of it.

Mary

Yeah, I find too with some of my clients, I say, when you start a podcast, those podcast episodes can become chapters of your book because that will be written. And then you also have the audio part and you already know how you are going to say it and how your emotion is going to come across because you’ve already done it on podcasts.

DP

Exactly. And you will be able to tell if something sounds like a cliché because you’ve heard it via your ears. Rewrite it. Because your ears are actually highly attuned cliche-finders, if you will. Anytime you stumble, take a breath, or rewrite or put a comma in. And by the way, one of the things that drives the grammar Nazis in your life crazy, if you’re a copywriter like me, I write for music and I write for rhythm, meaning that I will put commas in, not necessarily where grammatically those commas should be yes, I do it to indicate a pause.

Mary

Pause. Oh, yes.

DP

My favourite punctuation device is an M dash. An M dash is a long dash, the width of an M character. That is an indication of longer pause. So I could say something like, Mary Chan is a podcaster, comma, and also a audio producer, long dash, but what she’s really great at is making incredible chilli or something like that. You know, it’s like Mary Chan is a podcaster, comma, and an audio producer, long dash, but what she’s really good at is making a killer chilli. The long dash is a signal that anything that comes after the long dash is more important than anything else in the sentence.

Mary

Yep. You got a mark up your script and say you get a script, maybe your VA wrote it for you before you’re going to be reading the intro to a podcast guest. Well, because there wouldn’t be room for an M dash, I like to put in a forward slash. So you see that I want to put a bigger pause in there before finishing off the sentence.

DP

Yeah. And the whole thing is everyone’s going to have their own kind of secret code, recipe for doing this stuff. I’m not telling you what punctuation marks to use. I’m saying use punctuation marks to give yourself a cue that this is where I set up the line so I can deliver it like this. That was exaggerated, by the way.

Mary

Really exaggerated.

DP

Yes. It was.

Mary

But it worked so well. What differences do you see in the audio medium that people are not taking advantage of right now?

DP

Well, the biggest thing is the power of conversation. There are a lot of people who have an agenda and they want to get out there. Five Simple Ways to Earn Six Figures in Five and a Half Minutes, you know, and they come off with a recipe instead of trying to create a relationship via audio. Because one of the things about audio that people may not really realize is that it is so intimate medium that if you think about it, the audio actually goes in people’s bodies via their ears. You are inside their head. Consequently, they think they have a closer relationship to you. The listener does to the host than the host may to the listener. So it’s really, really killer for hosts to understand the intimate nature relationship they have with any listener. I’m not saying to take advantage of it, but I’m saying to recognize it, so that when you start talking about your listeners or your audience, have in mind one specific person that you’re talking to. Because if you’re talking to that person specifically, you’re actually talking to an entire cadre of people in your audience who are exactly like that one person. So audio is huge. I mean, there’s… the real killer thing about podcasts is that you can take something that is pretty easy to do, which is talk and leverage it, magnify it in any number of different ways that serve you. So as I said, you do a podcast, my podcast. Mary, you were on my podcast. I had no written questions for you. I just looked at your website, I learnt a little bit about you. I followed you on LinkedIn. I had your LinkedIn profile up on one screen, I had your pod match profile up on another screen and we had a conversation and created a relationship. And now I have a podcast episode and I will get a transcription of that podcast interview and I will if I get my ducks in a row, I don’t always do this, so don’t hold me to it, but I will put it on my website so that it becomes searchable text and consequently my getting to know you is a power up, it’s an unlock. You getting to know me extends your reach into my part of the Internet metaverse, we’re all talking about the metaverse, right?

Mary

Yes.

DP

I hope, I hope I never run into Mark Zuckerberg there. But I think that audio is such a fantastic tool because I don’t know about you, but every time I’m vacuuming, I’m listening to a podcast. Every time I’m waiting in line to pick up a kid at something, I’m listening to a podcast. If I’m on an airline flying someplace, I’m listening to a podcast. It is such a great way to provide value to people in a way that leverages who you are, what you do, and how you do it in a way that completely demonstrates all those things. And here’s the thing not everyone’s going to like me or my podcast. Great. I don’t have to waste any time on you. You don’t have to waste any time on me. Go find another one. There’s a whole ton of podcasts. But for the people who do find value, they’re going to find value in a way that has built a relationship, the relationship I just talked about, they’re going to consider me a friend even though I haven’t met them. 

I don’t know about you, Mary. But have you ever gone to a networking event or a conference or something like that pre-COVID? Where you walk in a room and you don’t know anybody, and if you’re like me, a natural introvert, you’re kind of going, I don’t know anybody. This is going to be painful. And the second you walk in, you’ll scan the room and all of a sudden you see someone who’s got this, kind of, inviting smile on their face and you decide to go over to them and introduce yourself and you’re about to say, Hi I’m DP, and they go, Oh, I know you, DP. I listen to your podcast.

Mary

Yeah, I’ve had this with the situation…a client of mine, she went somewhere. And she was just talking to a friend of hers and somebody ran up beside her and said, Are you so-and-so from the so-and-so podcast? And she’s like, What? What just is… what is happening here? And it was because they recognised her voice. You get sort of this, bit of a celebrity status with it because you’ve been in their lives, in their heads, in their ears, like you were saying, for so long, episode after episode after episode.

DP

Well, let me, let me share with you a story very much like that. I’m at a networking event. I got there a little late, so I’m at the back of the room there’s a presentation going on or just about to start. So I see someone I know, 5 minutes before the lecture starts or the presenter starts doing their thing and so we’re just catching up a little bit. And I’m trying to be a little bit quiet, but there are some people within 15 feet of us, and all of a sudden I see a woman whip her head around, look at me and smile and come over and introduce herself. And I did the old, Oh, I’m sorry, where do I know you from? I’m sorry, I don’t remember you. And she says, Oh, you wouldn’t know me. I know you because I listen to your podcast and you sound exactly the same as you do on your podcast. And I said, Mhm. And that’s why there’s no better platform to demonstrate who you are, what you do, and how you do it in an audio way, then a podcast. And by the way, those podcasts exist and are available to anybody who wants to discover them as long as you pay the podcast host, which… and the hosting service.

Mary

Where the podcast lives in the Internet universe.

DP

Exactly. I’ve got 183 episodes up and what happens is someone will jump in on episode 125, some of them will back up 25 episodes and then listen forward and then get all the way up to 183 and they’ve already subscribed, so they’re going to get 184 next week. You know, et cetera, et cetera. Those are sitting up there for anybody and they’re available, say it with me… on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart, Radio, blankety blankety blankety. It is such a force multiplier. I have limited power. Let’s assign it a number, one. I am one person doing one thing at one time. That is the power of one. The second you put your power into a podcast, you force multiply that power of one times how many channels is it going out on? How many subscribers do you have? How many guests have you had on that you are now a part of their networks, getting their network effects? And by the way, you can spend a lot of money on podcasting or you can spend next to nothing. And I’m dead serious about this. I know podcasters who have started podcasts with an iPhone. That’s it. And then they got their feet under them. They found out they were having fun with it. They decide, Well, maybe I’ll get a Shure SM 58 microphone, which here in the United States will run you just around $100 U.S. Well, that’s a pretty good dynamic microphone. It’s not the best, but it’s not the worst. And you can get a good sound out of it if you know what you’re doing. So I spent $100. Then I decide, hmm, I might use what you use, Clean Feed, to make sure that the recording is as clean as it can be, given the quality of your guests’ microphones set up because here’s the dirty little secret truth –  if I have a crappy microphone on my end, I’m going to sound crappy. I don’t sound crappy because I have a Shure Beta 87a, which is perfectly tuned for my vocal range, which is a dynamic mic because I’m a rather loud talker, I don’t need a blue yeti condenser microphone. Thank you very much for all the people out there.

Mary

You don’t want one of those, anyway. They’re not good for podcasters because they were meant for soundproof booths.

DP

Yeah, exactly. 

Mary

Do we record in them? No, we don’t as podcasters. 

DP

Exactly. You know, but that’s all the stuff that you, Mary Chan, let me give you a little bit of a plug here. Let me ask you this question, gentle listener. Have you ever considered what a podcast might be able to do for you, not only in getting your voice out there, but in demonstrating who you are, what you do, and how you do it? Well, let me tell you, there’s no better way to do exactly those things via a podcast but how do you get started? What microphones do you need? What technology is involved? What do I even call my podcast? Hmm. I know someone who can help you out with those things. Her name’s Mary Chan. Well, you’re listening to this podcast, so you know exactly where she’s available.

Mary

Oh, I did not know this interview was going to turn into a sales pitch. Thank you.

DP

But let me tell you. But here’s the question I want to ask you. Who’s selling who the hardest? 

Mary

Yeah. 

DP

Yes, I teetered up to make you look good, which makes me look good on your podcast. But I’ve also demonstrated exactly who I am, what I do, and how I do it.

Mary

Totally.

DP

That’s the power of podcasting, but also other social media channel. Which of those channels is right for you? That’s a bigger question.

Mary

Thank you so much, DP. We talked so much about podcasting, but final question for you. What is the one thing that is exciting you right now about podcasting?

DP

Oh, OK, this is absolutely true. I did my podcast for three years. 164. I can’t do the maths. How many episodes is that? Every week, every Monday, a new podcast. Three years. And I struggled with finding guests. I had multiple guests on multiple times just because I was having trouble finding guests and during that three-year period I guested on no, zero, zip, nada podcasts elsewhere. And I know the power of podcasting, right? I should be the first one trying to be a guest on someone else’s podcast. I wasn’t doing that. And then I got an email from this service, and it’s an online service called PodMatch.com, which I’ve heard referred to as Tinder for podcasters and their guests. I checked it out and I’m like, I don’t know if this is for me, but I’ll at least fill out a profile. Two weeks later, I get an incoming email from a podcaster saying, Hey, I’d like to have you on my podcast. And I’m like, What? Okay.. I go on his podcast. We have a great time. We talk for an hour and his podcast was a 15-minute episode, so he did four episodes of me. He divided it up into four episodes of me talking about who I am, what I do, and how I knew it.

Mary

Was that the game changer for you? That’s what turned you on to guesting?

DP

Long answer to your question, what am I excited about? Adding podcast guesting to everything I try to do to boost my personal brand, to demonstrate who I am, what I do, and how I do it, and to differentiate myself in the marketplace. Because here’s the thing, branding’s number one job is, going all the way back to when it was talking about branding cattle, it’s about differentiating your brown cow from my brown cow.

Mary

Oh my gosh. That’s right. I totally forgot about that. That is such a great analogy.

DP

But that’s what it is. Job one of branding is to differentiate. Job number two of branding is demonstrate. Okay, I’ve differentiated myself. Now I have to continually demonstrate how I’m different.

Mary 

Okay, so then why didn’t you want to be a guest in the first place?

DP

It wasn’t easy. It’s not like I never wanted to be a guest. I just never thought about it. But yeah, what an unlock. Podcast guesting is a tremendous personal branding unlock, and if you aren’t doing it, you’re leaving opportunity on the table for someone who’s got a little bit more chutzpah, then.

Mary

And you really get to showcase who you are through both ways. Being a host, you kind of put on the host hat, but then being the guest, you get to explore more of yourself. You get to tell more of your stories when you are a guest.

DP

Well, in let me give you a pro tip. By podcast guesting, you get to refine your ideas. Like, I’ve got a book in my head, some of which the ideas we’ve talked about today are going to find their way into that book that I’m not even writing yet, but I’m refining them on the fly. When I talk to smart people like you. The things you’re responding to, the energy you’re giving me back is tremendous feedback on, Oh, that’s a cool idea. And I’m like, What did I say? Write it down. She thought it was a cool idea. Write it down.

Mary

Yeah, exactly. It’s a place to really test out all your ideas…

DP 

Amen.

Mary

Dip your toe into the pool and see, Is this working or even saying something out loud to someone else for the first time and test that out. 

DP

Exactly.

Mary

Does this work? Does this phrasing match with what I want to convey? Does the person on the other end receive it well, when they hear it? There’s so many great aspects to having a podcast that’s beyond the marketing and the branding side of things, too.

DP

Yeah. Amen.

Mary

All right. Thank you so much for coming on. It was such a pleasure to chat with you again.

DP

Oh, thank you so much, Mary, and good luck with all you’re doing out there in Victoria.

Mary

Well, there you go. How would you tweak your brand right now, now that you’ve heard this conversation with DP Knudten? In my last episode, episode number 43, I talked about visual and audio parts of your brand for your podcast, but DP cements how it’s not just those two parts that equal your personal brand, it’s about you. And as the host of a podcast that’s part of your brand, it’s what you do.

So if you’re looking for more insights to build your personal brand, DP’s got a few free worksheets for you. The link will be in the show notes for you to start doing some homework on yourself. Thanks again to DP for coming on the show. And if anything has piqued your interest please leave me some feedback about what you thought by leaving a voicemail.  There is the purple button. You click on that that says, Send Voicemail and it will record straight from your phone and land in my inbox. How simple is that? Thank you so much. I really value your input and would love to hear from you. So ok, chat with you next time.