The Perks of Being (or Having) a Co-Host with Darren Dukes and Jamie Weiss – Episode 104

<< MUSIC IN – GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS >>

MARY: What happens when a physiotherapist and a radio veteran walk into a bar? Okay, I know, bad joke. [LAUGHTER] But you know what? This did happen in terms of someone who knows nothing about being behind the mic, the physiotherapist, and teaming up with someone who does have experience, that radio veteran, to create a passion project of a podcast. Like all new podcasters ask, it’s the age old question, where do you start? What do you do first? And then for these two, how do we work together as co-hosts? 

We’re breaking down this untraditional relationship with Darren Dukes and Jamie Weiss of Island Miles, a podcast about running on Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada, exactly where I live. And, you know, the radio veteran, Jamie. Yes, we did work together, of course. Full disclosure here. I worked with Jamie for about 14 years, so when I knew he was starting a podcast, I of course had to ask him why he started it, and after escaping 22 years in traditional media of radio, was there any imposter syndrome doing this type of work all over again after this break that he had after radio? And spoiler alert, yes, I mean, I had that too. 

However, I’m also really glad that Darren is joining us on this episode because he’s the newbie to the audio world. He’s the physiotherapist by trade for over 20 years. So like he says on the show, he’s a very, you know, physiotherapist are a hands on type of person and he doesn’t really do tech. So how does a guy like him, who had the original idea to start the show, even start one? And I bet you already know you’re piecing all of this together. The answer to that question, of course, is asking Jamie to be his wingman of sorts. 

So you can hear the whole background on how the podcast came to be on their first episode of Island Miles, which I’ll link to in the show notes. But for our conversation, we’ll get into how to distribute the work and actually work together as co-hosts on a podcast. And also maintaining positive momentum and establishing a long term vision for success. So whether you host your own show or you have a co-host, this episode is going to be for you. They’ve got lots of great tidbits that will help you elevate your show as well. 

This is episode number 104 with Darren Dukes and Jamie Weiss on the Podcaster’s Guide to a Visible Voice.

<< WOMAN SINGS: So so so so let’s go >> 

Darren and Jamie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

I can’t wait to dive into your little co-hosting habits and how you got into this whole podcasting scheme, I think Darren roped Jamie into.

JAMIE: Yes…

DARREN: [LAUGHTER] Thanks for having us. 

JAMIE: …Yeah, 100% did. Yes. That’s on you, Darren.

[LAUGHTER]

MARY: So I know that, from speaking with Jamie before, that it wasn’t Jamie’s idea, which I think most people would say, oh, you’ve got the broadcasting background, of course you’ll create a podcast. So Darren, when you roped him in, tell me honestly, how good was Jamie’s advice and did he actually sound like he knew what he was talking about?

[LAUGHTER]

DARREN: Listen, it was one of those things where, you know, sometimes you just need to give someone a little push and then, you know, it’s going to just snowball. I had met Jamie a couple of times through my work and, and through running, but I didn’t know. I knew he worked in his current job in his position, but I didn’t know his history of being in, broadcasting,… 

MARY: Ah.

DARREN: …DJ, et cetera, et cetera. So this is something that had mulled around in the back of my brain for quite a long time, but I couldn’t quite picture how it would come to fruition. And I knew I wanted to be, sort of a conversational style, not just me ranting on like I am now, but talking to other people. So as soon as I heard that history, it’s just sort of this little light went off and said, this is the guy you got to speak to. 

So obviously I think he didn’t see it coming. Took a while for him to process it a bit, but it’s been awesome. I think, I mean, I’m going to speak for Jamie now, but I think it’s energized him in other ways as well to sort of reinvigorate in a non-work setting, I think for all of us. But yes, the skills and the knowledge and the experience have been invaluable. To work with someone that can sort of have all the jargon and say, you know, we’ve got to have this skeleton and this show, and the intro, and the extro, and the music and it’s all stuff you don’t think about. For me, it was really invaluable.

MARY: Okay, we’re going to come to Jamie a little bit though, but let’s stay where you are like, at that beginning process. Why did you not start it?

DARREN: Let’s give it a bit of background. So I came obviously from a different country, from South Africa to here, and everything was new to me. Not only talking podcast, but talking about the whole environment, the situations, the networking, the community. Other than just the technical side, I think what held me back was also having someone local in the community that you could tap into as well. 

So what held me back was number one, a community link, but also number two, sort of being a bit daunted by the technical side really, like, where do you even start? You know, somehow you listen to podcasts and it sounds like, seems like an easy thing to just get going, but the little bit of research I did and digging around, I thought, no, this does sound a bit more complicated… 

MARY: Mhmm.

DARREN: …so, yeah, to have people around that, I mean, Jamie wasn’t doing podcasts, but to have at least a foot in that sort of camp was brilliant.

MARY: Yeah, podcasting really is like this whole community thing. People think it is easy, you plug a mic and you start talking, but it is more fun when you have that community to talk to. And so agree, Jamie,… 

JAMIE: Mhmm. 

MARY: …certainly your day job now isn’t the whole broadcasting thing, so you don’t have to be behind the microphone. So why did you even bother to say yes to, to doing this?

JAMIE: Well, I want to say first of all, Mary, that while Darren was trying to convince me to do this podcast, I think he had his elbow in my calf trying to release it because I was going to him for a running injury. [LAUGHTER] And so like, you’re on the table and physios are great at inflicting pain for, for long term gain,…

MARY: Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

JAMIE: …I will say. But you know, as you’re on the table and they’re working on you and you’re sweating in pain, they talk to you, they chat with you, they try to distract you. 

MARY: Yes. 

JAMIE: So I’m not even sure if it was the first time I went to Darren that he brought this up. I kind of maybe mulled it around. Maybe it was the second time and I started to think, you know what, maybe I am ready for something like this. So I got out of radio in 2017. So it’s been eight years, almost to the day, that I got out of radio. So it has been a long time and I needed that kind of emotional break from the entire thing, the entire process. 

MARY: Yeah. 

JAMIE: It’s a fun job, it is exciting, it is exhausting, it was tiring. So I needed that break and I got it. I loved listening to podcasts. That’s one of the things when I got out of radio, I loved listening to long form things and I loved really great storytelling with good production. And back in the early days of podcasts, the ones I was listening to, the production wasn’t great, they were very raw. But I still love the storytelling. Well, the bar has continually been raised, right, by listening. 

MARY: Mhmm. 

JAMIE: There’s more out there. The quality is better. So I knew when Darren had approached me and our third partner, Dan, we’re all running buddies, so we all have this passion for running. And I discovered that I still did have a passion for getting behind a microphone and doing it in a way that, as Darren said, is not connected to my work. I didn’t have to do it to collect a paycheck. This is purely for joy and sharing the love of running. And Victoria and the island have this amazing, rich, vast running community. And all runners are just hungry for more information. They love hearing stories about other runners. So it just felt like a natural fit for me. 

And once we kind of decided to do it, I mean, Darren can maybe speak to this, but I kind of hit the ground running, and I feel like I might have scared both of these guys a little bit by just how I came in hot. [LAUGHTER] I came in with, like, guys, like, we need to, I wanted to create a show map and, like, different elements and have it all pinned down. And I started just kind of spewing all this stuff at them, and I think I might have started to raise their blood pressure. Like, what have we gotten ourselves into with this guy? [LAUGHTER] But I was really excited to get going on this.

MARY: Yeah, I bet you, like, throw all the jargon at them, and they’re like, show map? A map. What? We’re not running, where are we going?

JAMIE: Audience? Why are we talking about audience and demographics, graphics and all that stuff? For sure.

MARY: How did that feel for you, Darren, when Jamie presented all this to you?

DARREN: Listen, he said that I, I loved it. It was all new to me. It was like, okay, what is he talking about? Like, that’s not a GPS watch. We need, we need some sort of other map. But no, it was, you know, for me, what it did more than anything. It confirmed that this is. This is the right way to go. It’s like someone holding a mirror up to you, and you realize, you know what? I really wasn’t ready for this. Because then you realize, okay, listen, this is the way we need to do it if we’re going to do it properly. We need to have all these things in place, and they weren’t going to be in place if Jamie wasn’t doing that. So once you saw that, yes, it was a bit daunting, but absolutely, you realize that’s essential. You need to have that stuff in place. You need to have that plan. And, yeah, he was the right guy for that, so it was brilliant.

MARY: Okay, Jamie, then you mentioned, show map. Of course I know what you’re talking about. But to most people, yeah, they’re like, what? So, not to, like, dumb it down, but, yeah, how did you explain that to the guys?

JAMIE: I just said we need structure. We want this to sound good, right? Like, we want this to sound clean and professional. And you want your audience to be able to get your message right without the distractions of maybe bad sound or maybe you’re all over the place. So, and that was kind of drilled into me in my radio days was preparation. Before you go on air for a shift and you’ve got things mapped out, you know, what you’re going to talk about and when in between what songs and all that stuff. And if you’re prepared, you’re more likely to succeed. 

So, listen, we need to have a consistent structure, you know, and that gives you freedom within that structure to kind of riff and go off in different directions. But you always kind of come back to the structure. I mean, I just tried to explain the importance of it and that it would make our lives easier. You know, that’s what it comes down to. It’s like if you’re painting a wall, you know, you could just go and paint a wall, but if you haven’t, like, found the dents and the dings and, you know, filled and sanded them and then painted, it’s not going to look as good. So it’s all about, like, just being ready, preparing, and having consistency. 

I feel like you’ll have success, especially if everybody’s on board. That’s the other thing. And I. I didn’t just want to kind of throw things at them and say, this is what we’re going to do. It was more of a, hey, this is what I’m suggesting, and this is why. It’s not just the what, but it’s the why to go along with it, right? To really kind of sell it. And then one of the other things I really wanted to, and I told them, I said, this is a hill I’m gonna die on, guys. [LAUGHTER] I said, I want the episodes to be roughly 30 minutes each digestible. Cause that’s kind of my attention span with most podcasts is kind of 30 minutes, maybe 45. But, like, keep it tight, keep it short. And the way I sold it to these guys was I want people to be able to listen to an entire episode on a 5K run.

MARY: Yes. That is exactly it. 

JAMIE: Mhmm. 

MARY: Like, I talk to a lot of podcasters too, and they’re like, yeah, but how long should the episode be? A lot of people do an hour. And I’m like, you know what? A lot of people actually record an hour because that’s the time limit on their calendar that they set the schedule for. 

JAMIE: Right. 

MARY: And then they’re like, oh, it’s time to wrap up. Let’s close out this episode. Right. But, like, knowing who you’re talking to and what they’re doing while they’re podcasting is so crucial. So I love that, that 5K, though, if I were a beginner runner, I would never make that and I’d have to probably listen to two episodes.

[LAUGHTER]

JAMIE: There you go. Then we’re just getting more listeners. You’re listening to more content, right? Yeah, for sure.

DARREN: With three of us doing the podcast, it’s easy for us to trip over each other. 

MARY: Mhmm. 

DARREN: We’ve all got stuff we want to say, we’ve got a list of things we want to get through. So to have some structure and sort of a little bit of. That’s your role. That’s your role. You know, today you’re going to do that. Today you’re going to do that. And then it just gives us all our own sort of, you know, place in that episode, instead of us all just trying to bump into each other as we go along. So the structure was also, especially because there’s three of us on the pod, was to give us all a little role that we can sort of take to.

MARY: Yeah. So explain that role a bit more. Does that change in terms of, like, the type of questions you’re asking or what is that role that you’re going to play for each episode?

DARREN: Yeah, I think it’s going to be quite organic. I mean, we’re still figuring it out a little bit, but clearly Jamie sort of and we’ve been happy to. To do this and it’s worked, it’s taken. I mean, I for lack of a better word, sort of more the host role to go that way. Like, I think if we all had a bit of a loss for words, we know Jamie’s going to be the one to pick up that slack and sort of. And then direct the conversation. What’s been nice with getting three of us and that, again, it was a bit of my. 

My thinking when we were putting it together was to have people, three people with different. Different skill sets, different interests slightly. So that when we have different guests, there might be some episodes one of us might take more the lead than the others. But, we’ll all look at things slightly differently and maybe ask questions that, you know, if I was doing it on my own, I wouldn’t even think to ask, why do we. I’d go down one rabbit hole. And with three of us, we are covering a way broader spectrum with every guest we have.

JAMIE: That’s a great point. And it’s happened so many times in every episode where one of Dan or Darren ask a question that I definitely wouldn’t have asked. And it takes us in a great direction and it just provides that kind of diversity with our guests. And one of the things that we’ve done is we’re using Google Docs. So I’m creating a show map. We’ve got kind of a template that we can put together for each episode and I’ll share it with the guys and we’ll all drop things into this shared document. Drop in questions. We’ve got a feature kind of off the top and then another one later on. So we’re all kind of feeding that content in. 

And then when we come into the episode and I’ll kind of like, with some things, I’ll kind of label it as Darren’s gonna do this, Dan’s gonna do that…

MARY: Yeah. 

JAMIE: …They haven’t pushed back on that yet, but I kind of do it based on feel, right? Like, what feels right. And, you know, if Darren gets our guest, you know, to me, he should be the one that introduces the person and brings them onto the show and takes the lead from that perspective. Right. So. So it’s just a matter of a little bit of feel. But using that shared document, I feel like has been a godsend for the three of us to stay organized and stay on track.

MARY: Is that document up as well as you’re recording the episode and you guys are making notes on that?

JAMIE: Yep.

MARY: Love it. Yeah.

JAMIE: Yep.

DARREN: That’s worked really, really well. You know, to have that shared doc. You know, I get a half an hour gap at work. I can jump on there, have a look at it, add some things in, and then you go back, you know, the next day, and you see there’s something else on there. And then, yeah, I put it up on the screen while we’re doing the recording and you can, you can literally just go through it. And as we’re going through it, you can see what we’ve covered or not covered. Yeah, really handy.

MARY: So, Darren, what’s another thing that you learned from Jamie now where you’re like, I never even thought about that, this is so essential to creating a podcast?

DARREN: I mean, we talked about the structure of it and I think, I mean, I didn’t think too much about the length, but I gotta be honest, I wasn’t too fussed about that. But I agree with him 100 percent now. I think to have sort of some uniformity with it and I think when people listen then it’s, it’s almost like you walk into a franchise. You know, if you walk into a fast food place or something, you know what you’re gonna get because it all, it looks the same, the menu is going to be the same. 

So with the podcast, you sort of want the structure and the feel. Like if people start listening, they’ll know, okay, at the start we’re gonna, we’re going to jump around, talk about some news, some quirky stories. Then we’re going to introduce the guest. We’re going to have a, you know, a chat or the technical part of the talk. Then we’re going to finish off by, you know, what’s coming up, maybe one or two other. So they’ll get familiar with the structure of it. And I think that’s been really nice to do.

MARY: Yeah. And I don’t think listeners realize how much prep and structure there is because they’re just like,…

DARREN: Yes.

MARY: …following along and listening. Like, oh, yeah, just kind of flows so nicely one to the next.

JAMIE: Yeah. And that’s one of the things I remember from radio was that the more prepared you are and if you’ve been doing it for a while, you don’t sound like you’re. And people were always blown away that for a lot of the things I did, I had written notes, I had bullet points, and they’re like, but you don’t sound like you’re reading anything. I’m like, of course not. But it doesn’t mean I’m not prepared. And I have a map or an idea of I’m going from A to B to C. And that’s kind of what that document does for us. And then the production elements, that’s another thing that I felt was important to having a podcast sound good in my ears was we need to have clean intro, clean extro. And then when we’re transitioning to different things, like near the end of each episode, we talk about three kind of races that are coming up on the Vancouver Island race calendar. And so we’ve got some music that we have a music bed that we drop under that and then the intro and the extro. And those are just kind of like auditory cues for the listener as to what is happening now and then what’s happening next kind of thing, right? 

And that’s where you came in, Mary. And I was so excited to be able to work with you again. And you were the first person that popped into my mind, obviously, the work you’re doing on producing podcasts and supporting podcasters, but also just I knew your production skills, and I knew you’d be able to put together an intro and an extra that just sounded really sharp and got us off on the right foot. I’ve told a few people this, but I don’t know if I wouldn’t say Darren and Dan were lukewarm on getting started, but I feel like there was maybe a little bit of anxiety or, not fear, but yeah, just a little anxiety about what it’s going to be like. But when I put the first episode together, right. And then I sent it to them, I have a feeling that when they heard it, they’re like, holy crap, we sound really good, right?

MARY: Yeah.

DARREN: Yeah, it suddenly sounds professional through this process. You know, I also listen to a lot of other podcasts, and now you sort of. You pay attention to those podcasts and you actually see more. I mean, I guess I didn’t maybe look for it before, but you can see how they are doing things, you know, in line with what we’ve been doing. You can see how they’ve structured it. You can see how they’ve planned it. And it’s not like you just sitting down and they, listening to them, you know, chat away. You can see that there’s been a lot of work going into this. So for people that are thinking about doing something or starting something, when you listen to podcasts, really try and pull it apart, like, try and recognize the different elements they’re putting into it, how they structured, you know, how they seen things together. Because if you pay attention, do you see that there’s a lot more planning and thought that’s gone into it than just someone sitting down and having a chat.

MARY: Yeah. Because you guys are having a chat, essentially, right?

JAMIE: Yeah.

MARY: So, okay, Jamie, you’ve done this before. Obviously, we can hear it. We, I, I’m, like, nodding yes the whole time. You can’t see me, but yeah, I’m like, yep, yep, yep, yep. But did you have moments of imposter syndrome? Like, tell me about how if any of this imposter syndrome or anxiety showed up for you.

JAMIE: Yeah, I 100 percent had and still have imposter syndrome. And, you know, when people say, what’s new in your life. My first instinct is to not tell them about my podcast, [LAUGHTER] even though, like, we want everybody to know about this. So I feel like there’s. I’ve listened to, you know, my. Some of my favorite podcasts, and I listen to them religiously, and they mean so much to me. And I thought, oh, my god, I’m not. I can’t do what they do. I’m not, I’m not a podcaster, even though I. I’ve been. I was a broadcaster for 22 years.I don’t know. I don’t know why. When it came to this particular platform, I felt that imposter syndrome, that anxiety. But I tried to internalize it, especially with Darren and Dan. I didn’t want them to see me sweat and see them, oh, my God, if he’s anxious, maybe we should be, too. 

So I really just tried to maintain my confidence, but it has presented itself  in a number of ways. And the best way for me to battle, and I battle, anxiety in my life, I have my whole life, but that preparation is the best way for me to combat anxiety. And, like, if I’m up at night and I can’t get to sleep and I’m thinking about the eight things I have to do the next day, I’ll get out of bed and I will write them all down, right? So that helps me kind of, okay, I’ve got a plan, and that kind of calms me down. So that show map, as important as it was for the show and for Dan and Darren, for us to sound professional and clean, it was super important for me to just kind of calm me down and say, you know what? We’re going to follow the plan. The plan looks great. And now that we’ve banged out some episodes, we know that it works for us, and it doesn’t mean we’re not going to be fluid within it or we might not change it periodically. We can, and we probably will. But for now, that map is like the. It’s the kind of the North Star. It’s the guiding light, and it’s the thing that keeps me from feeling that anxiety. 

And then obviously, you know, friends and family have listened to the podcast, maybe because they feel like they’ve had to, but I’ve also, yeah, I’ve heard the people that I’m like, they’re not. I’m not into running, but they said they still like listening to it because they’re hearing cool stories, right? So that’s one of the things. And then, but hearing organically from other people that are runners, that are like, oh, my god, I heard your podcast, and I really love this episode because of blank, or I love the story that you shared about blank. And that’s the stuff that just reinforces and says, you know what? This is good. We’re doing it right, and I can chill, you know?

MARY: Yeah. How did that manifest for you, Darren?

DARREN: Yeah, I, I, I think I was partly reluctant. Not reluctant, A little bit nervous in the beginning because I’ve done a lot, I’ve done a lot of speaking and teaching over the years, but that’s all, it’s in person, you know, in front of an audience or in front of a group of professional people, and you sort of just go with the flow. There’s no time agenda. There’s no structure. So the speaking and putting myself out there wasn’t, for me, so much of a concern. It was more like what we’re doing now, sitting in front of a microphone with technology and sort of trying to be, you know, work to a plan and a structure. It was more that, that I actually found a little bit more difficult. 

I can sort of just stand up and talk, you know, off the cuff. But to do it in a structured setting with an interview and a plan, and as I said, technology, that was, for me. I don’t work with technology a lot. I work with my hands. Most of the time, just sit with a screen like I am now, two screens in front of me, a microphone, earphones, it was a learning curve for me from the technology side.

MARY: So then how did you combat any of those anxieties?

DARREN: Well, again, I had to rely on Dan, the other guy with us on the podcast. He, you know, he’s done a lot of IT stuff. So between him and Jamie, they said, listen, this is the microphone to get, do this, and it’s a learning curve. I’ve always been that way. I learned by, uh, just doing it. I just dive in. And if I make mistakes, I make mistakes. And I’m still learning, but I enjoy it. And I think if you’re passionate about the project and what you want to do, the outcome, you’ll figure it out. You’ll just, you’ll just sort of just make a plan and get it done.

MARY: What was the most recent thing you learned? Because you’re like, I’m still learning. What was the newest one? When he went, whoa, aha.

DARREN: I gotta say, it’s still to do with, I mean, again, I’m sure we can drop some, I work with an Apple mainly at work. And then we’ve had to set up the Microsoft stuff and a laptop to do this stuff. And then it’s the integration of all of this stuff, like all the different softwares, you know, gets really confusing. Like we’re using a certain platform for the podcast,…

MARY: Right. 

DARREN: …then we’re gonna have to figure out the zoom stuff, and then you got to plug your microphone into that, and then I’m using a Bluetooth headphone. So it’s just, it’s just, it’s ongoing. I haven’t figured it out fully yet, but we’re getting there.

MARY: What about you, Jamie? Are you learning still?

JAMIE: Yeah, I’m learning about working with other people. Um, I feel like we’re always learning about working with other people. And, you know, I know Darren and Dan well, but when you’re working with people on a project, it’s very different than just having a BS session about running, right? 

MARY: Like, yeah.

JAMIE: So, you know, obviously we’re all passionate about running. That’s the topic of the general theme of the show is our passion for running in Vancouver Island. But how do you work with new people, right? So, I mean, I was fortunate to have some great co-hosts over the years in radio, and some I worked with for a long time. And it takes a little bit of time, but you get comfortable with the nuances and you kind of can finish each other’s sentences after a while and you understand what makes the other person tick. 

And the different personalities and the different working styles and even the different communication styles. What’s the best way for us to talk to each other? Is it WhatsApp? Is it with a phone call? Is it with meeting for coffee and having a chat that way? And what works for me might not necessarily work for Dan and Darren. So it’s a matter of learning their kind of communication language. So that’s one of the things that I would say I’m continuing to learn is how best to communicate with Dan and Darren and not be a jerk and not be pushy, but hopefully kind of keep us moving on things and moving in the right direction.

MARY: Yeah, there’s always going to be like, a new thing, a new challenge, the next tech thing, because podcasting changes so much.

JAMIE: Yeah. 

MARY: So, where do you see the next challenge coming from, Darren?

DARREN: I don’t think we’re there yet, and hopefully it won’t be for a while. But I think the challenge will be, we’re all pretty passionate. We’ve got a long list of ideas and things we want to do. And Jamie and I sort of chatted about this briefly the other day, but when we start to run out of ideas, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I say that I. I honestly think it’s not going to happen that soon. I think the list of stuff we want to do just keeps growing. But I think the challenge will be, you know, we all work full time. We have this as a passion project. We’d like to keep the ball rolling, but there might come a time when it feels a bit more like work than passion. 

MARY: Mhmm.

DARREN: But I think the benefit we’ve got with that is none of us have got a vested. And again, not everyone doing podcasts will have this privilege, but none of us have a vested financial interest in it. So if we have to take the foot off the gas a bit and back off a bit, then I’m sure we’ll all be happy to do that. But as I said, that’s a challenge. You asked me what could be a challenge. I don’t think it’s going to happen in the near future, but that could be the challenge.

JAMIE: Yeah. Content creation. Feeding the beast, we used to call it in radio. 

DARREN: Yes. Yes. 

JAMIE: You’re constantly feeding the beast. And that comes back to me. It comes back to, like, us mapping out the next, like, four or five episodes. We’ve done some good brainstorming. We’ve got this kind of, like, an idea sheet that we can kind of keep adding to. And then my hope is that the stories keep coming to us,… 

DARREN: Yes. 

JAMIE: …that as the show grows and we get to a wider Vancouver island audience, that we’ll start. People will be listening to us going, oh, they need to talk to Susan, who I know, who ran the marathon in Timbuktu, and she had this amazing experience. And then those people will reach out to us and say, hey, guys, have you thought about talking to this person or talking about that subject? 

So, I’m hopeful that that will help us down the road feed the beast and we’ll have our show ideas. And my hope is that we’re never getting to the end of our list of our show ideas… 

DARREN: Yes. 

JAMIE: …because things are happening to us or things are landing in our lap. And that happened with our third episode where Darren just happened to hear about a guy who was running from the southern tip of Vancouver Island… 

MARY: Yes. 

JAMIE: …to the northern tip in Cape Scott in two weeks.

MARY: That was nuts I listened to that one, geez. 

JAMIE: Insane, right? Yeah, amazing. And Darren heard about it and mentioned it to us in our WhatsApp chat. And then I just kind of went, like, went full tilt on it, and I reached out to the guy turned out, I already knew him from his days working at frontrunners. But because we were talking about this on a Thursday, I feel like it was a Thursday.

DARREN: Yeah, it was very quick turnaround.

JAMIE: Yeah. But he was starting on Monday. So like he was leaving to start this journey on the Monday. So it’s like, okay, we need to record with him like tomorrow and then I need to cut it together and we need to get it out kind of right around the time he’s starting. So that was a great example of the story came to us. And you just have to be ready to jump on certain things or be comfortable letting them. Letting them go, you know. 

MARY: Wow, yeah, I really enjoyed that one because it’s just this like people don’t realize how big the island is.

JAMIE: Yeah.

MARY: And the remoteness of a lot of it and then the weather that you have to tangle with. Like, like I said, I’m not a runner, but that sounds so daunting to me. So it was so great that you were able to like, be so flexible with your schedules and realize this is a passion of ours. We want to get this guy on and let’s make that happen because like you said, this isn’t something that you guys are doing full time. You have day jobs. So kudos for you guys for making that happen.

DARREN: And the best thing is he’s, he’s completed it, he finished and we will get him back for another episode. So we can do the follow up and find out about all the stuff you just mentioned, 

MARY: Yeah. 

DARREN: how far it was and the weather and the bears and the rivers and all sorts of stuff. 

JAMIE: Yeah. 

DARREN: So there’s two episodes coming out of just a story that we heard.

JAMIE: Mhm. One of the other things I’ll say is, and Darren has mentioned it and Mary, you mentioned it as well that we’ve got day jobs and we’ve got busy lives. The three of us are also fortunate that we all have children, but they’re all adult children now.

MARY: Oh, that helps.

JAMIE: It does. Our schedules, we’re all still busy with all kinds of stuff going on obviously. But that has freed us up. So if you’ve got a lot more complexities in your life and you’re thinking about, hey, do I have the time to do this? I mean that’s a serious consideration because as we’ve said, it’s not just about hitting record on a microphone and going there’s so much pre-planning work before you even get your first episode out and there’s so much ongoing work that you need to have the bandwidth to do it and to do it to a level that you’re going to be happy with.

MARY: Yes. All right, well, let’s end on some of that right now as we’re, you know, I’m just watching time getting close. Like, that’s why people are like, oh, it’s an hour, hour long episode because it’s almost 60 minutes. It hasn’t been for us. However, as we wrap up, Darren, maybe we’ll start with you. What is exciting about podcasting for you right now that just keeps you going?

DARREN: I mean, we only, what, five episodes in, and again, we sort of, you can track the numbers of how many people are listening and so on, which has been actually amazing to me already. But, more than that is the feedback. And one of our goals with the podcast was to try and inspire and motivate and, you know, reach people. And just in the short time and with the listens that we’ve had to hear stories, I mean, we’ve heard people, co-workers of one of the guests on, were inspired to go down and try the local Parkrun. 

People saying that, you know, their wife has now started running because of what she, you know, so you’re hearing these sort of little anecdotal stories, and we probably haven’t even heard of all of the ones that are out there, of things that are put into motion and started just by us sitting down and chatting around a microphone. I think that’s pretty amazing.

JAMIE: Yeah, I selfishly, I’m really getting a rush out of each episode publishing. We do the interview, we record our intro and extro bits separately. I put them together, I share it with the guys, they give me feedback. I’m getting a thrill again of hitting publish on an episode. And then it’s out there in the world, and it’s out there on Spotify, and Apple, and Amazon, and all those platforms. And that feels really good. And it feels really empowering to push something out there that people may or may not listen to. But it’s, it’s kind of. It’s a little bit your legacy, right? 

MARY: Yeah. 

JAMIE: Like you’re, you’re kind of building your podcasting legacy. Where it goes, who knows, we’ll just kind of keep growing it or shifting it as, as we kind of like evolve our skills and our show. I’m just really enjoying that, that thrill that. And it’s, you’re getting closure with each episode because each episode there are steps to getting it published, right? You’re starting from ground zero, you’re starting from the map you’re getting the guest. You’re, you’re sitting there, you’re recording, you’re cutting, you’re editing, you’re. And then you’re hitting publish each one of those mini journeys, you’re crossing a finish line to take it back to running. 

If you’re doing a race and you’ve trained for a race and then you do it, and that feeling of crossing the finish line with the crowd and just that kind of exhilaration you get, I feel like I’m getting that with the publication of every episode and I’m really loving that and I’m really grateful to have that back in my life again in a non-work related way that is way more enjoyable.

MARY: Yeah. Without that pressure of…

JAMIE: Yeah. 

MARY: the boss, the EBIDA? Whatever they kept telling us.

JAMIE: EBITDA [Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization], Oh, yes. Oh, man. Yeah. You’re gonna bring back my PTSD, Mary. 

MARY: Sorry. 

JAMIE: Yeah, it’s cool. I get it.

DARREN: Yeah.

JAMIE: No, and, and, and I mean, I guess my relationship with the listeners was always like the most pure part of my radio days and the rest of that stuff, which was essential to having the relationship with the listeners. It was a necessary evil, but that’s the stuff. And then of course, having a family and needing to do the job, collect the paycheck and radio isn’t, Darren, radio is not the most stable environment,… 

MARY: Or lucrative.

JAMIE: …you know, like it’s, it’s, it’s hard and people get fired and they’ve changed formats and it’s, it’s really. There’s a lot of stress around when you turn your mic on. And when you turn your mic on, that’s when you’ve kind of got that moment of purity. And I feel like I’m stripping out all that other junk and it’s all just kind of pure enjoyment and the love of running and the love of working with these two guys.

DARREN: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I couldn’t have said it better. It’s great.

MARY: I want to just quickly touch on. You were talking about like the listeners. You’re getting feedback. And in the podcasting world, sometimes a lot of people are like, feedback? What feedback? It’s crickets out there, right? Like people are listening, but they don’t provide feedback. So how are you getting feedback so far? Darren, you talked about it a lot. I want to hear your point.

DARREN: So every podcast, obviously different,… 

MARY: Yes. 

DARREN: …but one thing we’ve said with ours is we want it to be aimed at a local community. So, I mean, we’re happy that anyone. And it’s great to see like on our metrics, you can see people all over the world, strangely enough, or listening to it, like, you know, remote countries. But, majority of people we want to be listening are on Vancouver Island. So we are aiming our podcast at the community that we live in. So what’s going to happen is you’re going to get anecdotal feedback. And in my case, I work in the community of the people that we’re aiming the podcast at. So I get people coming to me on a daily basis that have been listening to the podcast and I get sort of direct feedback from them. So that’s the one route is sort of a one on one conversation. 

And then Jamie can probably speak more to this, but he’s been watching our socials a bit more and we’ve had, you know, we’ve got an Instagram account going that’s linked to the podcast and you know, you get some feedback on there. I mean, maybe I’ll leave that to Jamie to say, but for me it’s been more actually people that have listened and they come and see you and you and they talk about it and it’s, it’s personal feedback.

MARY: Yeah, it’s being where the listener is.

DARREN: Yeah.

JAMIE: Yeah. Darren’s kind of fortunate in that way. And you’re right, Mary, there, you know, it’s out in the ether. Your podcast is out there and you’re not used to getting feedback. Because we have a local audience and that’s our focus, I think we’re more likely to get some. We’ve had some comments on like Spotify episodes where you can. I didn’t even know you can leave comments on Spotify. 

MARY: Yeah you can it’s new. 

JAMIE: Yeah, so we’ve had some comments and the Parkrun episode we did. So Parkrun is a free 5k run that happens at Clover Point every Saturday in Victoria. Most runners don’t even know it exists. So we did an episode on that. We chatted with the organizers and we had some good commentary and comments from people on that episode. They said, oh, I’ve been doing Parkrun for years. And then on Instagram I saw people responding to it saying, I didn’t know there was a Parkrun. I’m going to go do it, you know? So that feels really good. 

And then of course, in the day and age of connections with people on teams at work or friends that are messaging you, you do get that kind of natural feedback. And it’s not quite the same as radio where we would have people call in all the time and chat with us and that kind of thing. So it’s not, you’re not necessarily gonna have immediate kind of feedback, but you are, you know, you are getting it in some ways. It’s not the be all, end all and it’s not the kind of thing that you, that will, I don’t think, will keep you going. And that’s not necessarily the reason we’re doing it. We’re kind of doing it because of the love of running. 

And then, and then Darren said, you know, the island needs to pull all this stuff together in one place. There’s a million races on the island. There’s a million events and people doing cool things, but there is no kind of repository or landing place for all of it. So that’s the goal, right? Is to celebrate running on the island, talk about the cool people, talk about the great events and promote great events and support the running community. 

The running community is interesting because, like, if you do a lot of races, there’s so many volunteers at the races. These races could not happen without people donating their time and energy, right? So as longtime runners, you get to a point where you feel like you need to give back, right? 

DARREN: Yeah. 

JAMIE: And volunteering for races is the best. Nothing feels better than volunteering at a race and cheering people on. And when they thank you for volunteering, that feels fantastic. But this is a different way for us to also give back to the running community that has helped enrich our lives so well, you know? 

DARREN: Yeah. 

MARY: I’ve learned a lot as well from the two of you. This was a great conversation. And Darren, it was such a pleasure to meet you as well and to just get your insights on somebody who is just like, I just want to do this, that passion project. And I think you guys have something amazing here because like I said, not a runner, but really interesting stories that you’re sharing.

DARREN: Passion is contagious.

JAMIE: Thanks, Mary.

DARREN: Thanks, Mary.

[MUSIC IN]

MARY: That was so energizing to hear. I mean, like I’ve said, right, I worked with Jamie for a long time and I know what he went through, at least from my version of that. And you know, seeing what we both went through in radio and needing that break and then coming back to and seeing him re-energized, it really re-energized me too and really thought back to all the different things that I also learned that maybe I also have forgotten about because you’re so used to doing things a certain way and then you’re like, wait a minute, right, there’s all these pieces too. There’s so much that he offers his co-hosts and really it’s about that passion part of doing this work. 

And especially, you know, if you have kids or no kids, it is something you have to be passionate about because it does take time to do it. So many people think about starting a podcast, but they never actually start one. So kudos for them for doing it. And if you have young kids like I do, yeah, they’re lucky they got their kids older and they can just spend more time on their passion projects like their show. 

The other thing that really resonated for me was, be where your listeners are. It’s another radio thing where I’m always saying, like, where are your listeners? And you want to hang out with them. And in radio, it’s easy, right? You’re live on location, people call in. But it’s this Asynchronousness of podcasting where you put out the show and then you kind of wait for people to comment on a platform or email you, and you’re just sort of like hovering and wondering, is anyone listening? But, like, they’re saying where their listeners are actually is in their community because their show is so hyper local. So if you have a show like that too, just think about where are your listeners hanging out? If it’s hyper local, where they are, physically be there too. But if it’s a broader show where you’re catching people all over the world, then you also want to be there as well. Like, where are they hanging out in the Internet sphere? And you want to be there in conversation with them as well. 

So this niching down idea works so well on a podcast, and especially for a show like theirs where they’re really just highlighting our region. And whether you are a runner or not, you’ll probably really enjoy the show. And, you know, I’m even thinking, like, further into the future, that success that they’re talking about. You know, this could also be a very popular travel podcast where people will travel to Victoria, to Vancouver Island to do all the races and the runs that are here. Because this area of the world is just so beautiful as well. So they talk about all this stuff and it’s part of their storytelling that it’s not just a running podcast. It could potentially be a place where people from all over the world can gather locally as well. And that is really the power of a podcast that, gotta say, radio can’t really touch. It’s limited in their broadcast scope, right? So podcasting really is so powerful and this way. So imagine that future of what your podcast can do for you because they are listening locally and abroad. 

So what was your takeaway from this episode. I mean, I had many there. But I’m also thinking about this painting analogy that Jamie talked about, because he’s right. The painting analogy, right? I try and avoid painting because I don’t like to do the prep work, but he’s right. The walls, the moving stuff around like, sanding down the scuffs, filling in the little holes and things, you gotta do all that prep work. And it’s the same in podcasting. So luckily, I like doing the prep work in podcasting, not so much in painting. 

So we’re actually going to talk more about this prep work. If this is something that you were like, ooh, I gotta know about this. The next episode is totally going to be for you. We’re going to talk content pillars, more of the show mapping. We’re going to get really into the details of the prep for your content on your podcast. 

So before you get into that next episode, make sure you let me know what your piece of nugget was from the episode. What did you learn from Jamie and Darren? Send me a voicemail from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com there’s that, send voicemail purple button, you click that. But of course, I would always love an email as well visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com. So those are the ways that you can contact me. Unless, of course, you live in Victoria, then, yeah, let’s go for a walk and hang out and we can talk about it too, right? Again, it’s not just about a global thing. You can also do a very niche, local, local podcast like them. So thanks again for listening and we’ll catch you on the next episode when we expand more on these concepts, especially around the show mapping. And we’ll break it down even further on the next episode.

[MUSIC ENDS]

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster’s guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

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